The American Muslim Movement.

This is getting silly now. How many of the people who have offered and opinion understand the fundamental difference between the Nation of Islam and the Islamic religion? Because, as far as I can see, they are being used as synonyms half the time, and the other half the time it is unclear what the phrase "American Muslims" is supposed to mean.

Bernard Lewis does not speak of the "Nation of Islam" or Minister Farrakhan's sect. He speaks of the radical minority in Islam which hates the West because it is not in line with the House of Islam or the will of Allah, if you will. The complaint that "they don't like us" is ridiculous. The radical Islamists hate us and would, if they could, destroy us with one blow because we are ruining the world and their women and children with our Godless secularism and modernity.
Again, radical Islamic fundamentalism does not represent the majority of Muslims, but there are enough radicals out there, eg---the Taliban---to give the rest of the world a great deal of trouble.
As we have noted, groups like the Taliban do not need huge armies. All they need is determined martyrs willing to blow themselves and the "enemies of God" to pieces.

I'm quite familiar with Bernard Lewis. The point of my last post - for the umpteenth time - was to point out that this thread is becoming more meaningless with every post because there is no consensus on what the term "American Muslim" means. Half the people in this thread - including, apparently, the thread starter - are using it to reference the Nation of Islam. The other half are using it to reference Muslims who live in America. This is retarded.

Aren't you training to be a journalist ILZ? If so, you may want to find a few adjectives other than retarded to throw into your vocabulary.

As for what an "american muslim" is, wouldn't anyone calling themselves a muslim in america count? Which sect they belong to is of little consequence.

It's the most versatile word in the english language.

And, don't worry, my lexicon is healthy.



Apparently not.

OK, so we have "american muslims" and we have "people who call themselves american muslims but aren't really". What should we call the latter group? Faux muslims? Pseudo muslims?

You're splitting hairs ILZ.

American muslim = anyone from the americas that practices an islamic based faith. Unfortunately for the mainstream this includes the nation of islam. In the same way that american christians have to put up with being grouped in with jehovah's witnesses.

I think ILZ's distinction is valid, especially since Farakkhan is so prominent in this thread. Farakkhan is The Nation of Islam. This is a very separate faction, viewed as such from within and without. I took a class in college on Islam, taught by a very sweet man who made a big impression on me (I think I have referred to him before), who was a Sunni Muslim and was just so sad that Farakkhan was being associated with his relgion. He couldn't emphasize the difference enough. He spoke at length about how to love Allah is to love peace.

Hmmmm - so, as Blatham implied, theories of cognitive dissonance would suggest that, just as modernism and secularism begin to encroach more effectively on Islamic countries, thus will the clinging of many ever more fiercely to more fundamentalist Islamic thought also increase - hopefully as a temporary phenomenon, overall.

This is an interesting addition to other theories about the current upsurge in radical Islam.....

Here is an interesting sidebar to a Washington Post feature on US interrogation practices - how things are alleged to be handled in Saudi Arabia - it contains an interesting use of Islamic clerics, as "de-programmers" for radicalised Islamic folk:

"Christopher Kojm, a former State Department intelligence official and a staff member of the commission, explained the rendition procedure at a recent hearing: "If a terrorist suspect is outside of the United States, the CIA helps to catch and send him to the United States or a third country," he testified. "Though the FBI is often part of the process, the CIA is usually the main player, building and defining the relationships with the foreign government intelligence agencies and internal security services."

The Saudis currently are detaining and interrogating about 800 terrorism suspects, said a senior Saudi official. Their fate is largely controlled by Saudi-based joint intelligence task forces, whose members include officers from the CIA, FBI and other U.S. law enforcement agencies.

The Saudi official said his country does not participate in renditions and today holds no more than one or two people at the request of the United States. Yet much can hinge on terminology.

In some interrogations, for example, specialists from the United States and Saudi Arabia develop questions and an interrogation strategy before questioning begins, according to one person knowledgeable about the process. During interrogation, U.S. task force members watch through a two-way mirror, he said.

"Technically, the questioning is done by a Saudi citizen. But, for all practical purposes, it is done live," he said. The United States and Saudis "are not 'cooperating' anymore; we're doing it together."

He said the CIA sometimes prefers Saudi interrogation sites and other places in the Arab world because their interrogators speak a detainee's language and can exploit his religion and customs.

"As hard as it is to believe, you can't physically abuse prisoners in Saudi Arabia," the Saudi official said. "You can't beat them; you can't electrocute them."

Instead, he said, the Saudis bring radical imams to the sessions to build a rapport with detainees, who are later passed on to more moderate imams. Working in tandem with relatives of the detainees, the clerics try to convince the subjects over days or weeks that terrorism violates tenets of the Koran and could bar them from heaven.

"According to our guys, almost all of them turn," the Saudi official said. "It's like deprogramming them. There is absolutely no need to put them through stress. It's more of a therapy."

The Saudis don't want or need to be directed by American intelligence specialists, who have difficulty understanding Arab culture and tribal relations, he said. "We know where they grew up," he said of the detainees. "We know their families. We know the furniture in their home." "

So - does the US have anti-hate speech laws? Or laws that act when there are incitements to murder? If so, it would seem to me a no-brainer that they apply equally to any sect/political organisation/person regardless of the particular brand of religion, racism, or politics held by the hate-monger/s to "justify" their idiocy.

Capitol Hill (CNSNews.com) - Following the arrests of a Muslim chaplain and an Arabic translator for suspected spying at the Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, detention facility, two senators are calling for a full investigation of terrorists' attempts to recruit members of the U.S. Armed Forces. Muslim-American groups fear the investigation may become a "witch hunt" for followers of Islam.

"How, in our most sensitive Army prison [at] Guantanamo, the most sensitive of Army facilities, were there breaches?" asked Sen. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) Thursday. "When you hear that, at Guantanamo, security has been breached, you say to yourself, 'Well, what's happening at the less secure and less sensitive bases?'"

Schumer's comments came after reports that at least two and possibly as many as four members of the U.S. military detail stationed at Guantanamo have been detained for alleged spying. The New York Democrat joined Sen. Jon Kyl (R-Ariz.) in calling for hearings by Kyl's Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Technology, Terrorism and Government Information.

"We had been talking about having a hearing on the military chaplains and in the [federal] prisons now for some time because clearly, both are ripe areas of recruitment that could really hurt us," Kyl explained. "And now, these stories come out to reveal the fact that our worst suspicions are, in fact, correct."

The military is responsible for allowing the alleged breaches, Schumer said, because it did not address a known area of concern.

"Certainly, we ought to get to the bottom of this," Schumer said. "The military, in my judgment, has been lax, totally lax in this regard. Before 9/11, I guess that's sort of understandable. After 9/11, it isn't."

Schumer recalled that the Defense Department's Office of the Inspector General told him in writing in March that it would honor his request to investigate the organizations that certify Muslim chaplains.

"Six months ago, I asked them to look into this, to see what's going on," Schumer recalled. "As of [Tuesday], they said they weren't, but now, as of [Thursday], they say they are. That's good news."

Schumer sent a letter to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld Wednesday, complaining about "incredibly lax" security procedures at the nation's most sensitive military installations and about the delay in the beginning of the probe.

Senators focus attention on two organizations that certify Muslim chaplains

Of particular concern to both Schumer and Kyl is the limited number of sources, only two, from which Muslims wishing to serve as chaplains can receive their credentials.

The Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) oversees the Graduate School of Islamic and Social Sciences (GSISS), which has been registered with the Pentagon to credential chaplains since 1991.

The American Muslim Armed Forces and Veterans Affairs Council (AMAF and VAC) is part of the American Muslim Foundation (AMF) and has been registered with the Defense Department for the same purpose since 1998.

The U.S. Customs Service raided the GSISS in March 2002 as the result of allegations that the organization was funneling money to al Qaeda and other militant Islamic groups. No charges have been filed against the school's leader, Taha Jabir Al-Alawani, who was also named in search warrants.

Schumer and Kyl question the logic behind the continued use of the GSISS as part of the vetting process for chaplains.

"I hope there is a complete and thorough investigation as to how these two groups were chosen, if they should at all be involved in choosing Imams and, certainly, if they should be the only groups who can choose Imams for the military," Schumer said.

"It seems logical to me, it wasn't done with any malice, but rather, with some carelessness," Schumer continued, "and as new facts came about, things should have been changed."

Kyl, however, believes there has been an organized effort to promote limited and specific sources for Muslim clerics for the military.

"It is remarkable that people who have known connections to terrorists, or at least the FBI believes have known connections to terrorists, would be the only people put in charge of selecting the Muslim chaplains in our military," Kyl charged. "That cannot be by accident. Someone had to try to plan to achieve that result."

Kyl said that all of the imams in the U.S. Armed Forces and many, if not most, of those in the federal prison system share one common characteristic, the branch of Islam they follow.

"Why doesn't the Shia branch of the Muslim faith or the Suni branch of the Muslim faith have significant representatives in the Muslim chaplaincy in our military?" Kyl asked. "Why is it only the Wahhabi?"

Schumer claimed that Muslim chaplains from the Shia and Suni sects, who he says "practice moderate and peaceful Islam," are almost non-existent in the military and the federal and even state prison systems.

"In the New York state prisons, when prisoners actually requested of the chaplaincy that they would like a different imam from the Suni or Shia sects, they were rejected," Schumer said.

Schumer claims Saudi Arabian effort to promote 'Wahhabi' Islam beliefs

In a statement on his website, Schumer accused the Saudi Arabian government of being "the world's primary sponsor of a puritanical and severe approach to Islam known as Wahhabism.

"This extreme form of Islamic belief is way out of the mainstream, preaching violence against non-believers or infidels and serving as the religious basis for Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda," Schumer alleged.

"Unlike the vast majority of American Muslims, who are hardworking, patriotic citizens and who practice moderate and peaceful Islam, followers of Wahhabism subscribe to teachings that show Allah cursing Christians and Jews and turning some of them into apes and pigs; and warn Muslims to consider non-Muslims or infidels their enemy," Schumer added.

The Saudi government, according to Schumer, is aggressive in sponsoring Wahhabism, giving millions of dollars to "madrassa" schools throughout the Middle East, Pakistan and Indonesia, schools he said promote what he calls "this extremist ideology."

Kyl said Thursday that untangling the alleged connection between the Saudis, Wahhabism and terrorism is crucial.

"What bothers me is that there is a lack of understanding in this country of who our enemy is in this war on terror," Kyl said. "[We need to] understand who these people are, how they are affecting our society, how they are infiltrating the organizations that have power in our country and how that can harm us."

Muslims fear backlash against their faith for actions of small minority

Some Muslims believe the investigations into a small number of alleged traitors who happen to be Muslim will be used to "marginalize and disenfranchise the American Muslim community."

"I think we're seeing that demonstrated by the actions of elected representatives like Senator Schumer and Senator Kyl, who are jumping on this issue in order to demonize all Muslim groups and all Muslims in America," charged Ibrahim Hooper of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR).

Told of the senators' clear delineation between the Shia and Suni versus the Wahhabi branches of Islam, Hooper called the verbiage a "really meaningless distinction."

"They differentiate, 'Oh, we love moderate Muslims, we just don't like Wahhabis.' Of course, they think everybody is a Wahhabi; every Muslim they meet is a Wahhabi," Hooper replied.

"They assign the terms 'Wahhabi, extremist, militant' to practically every Muslim organization, every Muslim leader in America, except the hand-picked few that they agree with," Hooper added.

Hooper also dismissed allegations that the GSISS is promoting Wahhabism.

"Schumer is now calling the Islamic Society of North America a 'Wahhabi group,'" Hooper observed. "It's such an unbelievable accusation that, if you know anything about the American Muslim community, it's stupid. It's just absolutely ignorant."

Even use of the term "Wahhabi" is politically motivated, Hooper said, claiming that it is not a word used like "Baptist," "Methodist" or "Episcopalian" are used to identify distinct Christian denominations.

"No Muslim calls themselves a 'Wahhabi' and, in fact, most would be insulted if you called them a 'Wahhabi,'" Hooper said. "It's a made-up word by those who don't want to appear to be attacking Islam."

At a Sept. 10 hearing of his subcommittee, Kyl addressed similar charges that "critics of Wahhabism and other forms of Islamist extremism as being racists and bigots" will not stand.

"Let us be very clear. We are not suggesting that Islam as a religion or its faithful believers are enemies of the United States, the West or modernity," Kyl said.

"However, a growing body of accepted evidence and expert research demonstrates that the Wahhabi ideology, that dominates, finances and animates many groups here in the United States, indeed is antithetical to the values of tolerance, individualism and freedom as we conceive these things," Kyl said.

Kyl called the Wahhabi/militant Islamic ideology "a clear and present danger to our Constitution and the principles of freedom enshrined by our founding fathers."
--------
I didn't coin the term American Muslim.
As I said earlier, it doesn't matter how we differentiate them, it matters how they associate themselves with Islam. It seems Shumer and Kyl were concerned about the infiltration in our society of terror-minded American Muslims, and the Hooper guy was doing the same thing many in this thread are doing--casting the huge, But They're Not All Bad net of invisibility over the entire issue, rather than knowing it is a given that They're Not All Bad, and facing the issue.

I don't think I'm mistaken in believing the Muslim faith (whatever sect or branch) is the fastest growing religion in the world, and in the US. I think it is of interest to see that growth, and ask pertinent questions about it.

(I don't remember seeing the outcome of this investigation. Anybody?)

Were you looking? Apparently they were trying to frame him for being Muslim. The charges of espionage were dropped, and he was instead charged with downloading porn onto a government computer and boinking a cute blonde lieuteneant. These charges were dropped as well.
BTW, how about braking out of the rightard mould and posting a link?

I wasn't sure that was the same guy. I remember now.

I did a quick look and it appears France adopted anti-Hate Speech laws on the net, but I didn't see anything about the US.

I'll look more later.

We don't have nationwide anti-hate speech legislation. the far right has gone out of its way to prevent such laws. Same with 'hate-crime" laws.

I thought Hate Crimes was signed into law.
I was against it, reasoning that a murdered wife or child is just as dead as a murdered <enter specially dead, protected group member here.>

I'd be for certain Hate Speech (inciting violence), but I don't know who sits in judgment of that... Books would be banned,...people would bend over backward to pervert the law, IMO.

Hate crimes are not federal law, but individual state statutes.

General information about trends in the American Muslim Movement. 4/5/04
-----------------

American Muslims becoming more active in religion, politics

BY GENEIVE ABDO

Chicago Tribune


CHICAGO - (KRT) - Muslims in the United States are becoming more religious and politically active, they tend to believe America is an immoral society and members of the younger generation appear more conservative than their parents, according to a detailed study to be released Tuesday.

The terror attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, had a lasting effect on the lives of American Muslims and led to two significant changes, the researchers said: More are attending mosques and activities in Islamic centers, and they want to become more involved in American politics to change policies they oppose.

Fallout from the attacks "made them realize they are a vulnerable community," said lead researcher Ihsan Bagby, a professor of Islamic studies at the University of Kentucky. "It accelerated their desire to become more involved both in their own communities and in America. This is an expansion of what it is to be pious. This process was already in place, but was accelerated by 9/11."

For the study, sponsored by the Institute for Social Policy and Understanding, a Michigan think-tank that studies Islamic issues, 1,298 Detroit-area Muslims completed questionnaires in mosques and at social events. Sixty-four percent of the respondents were male and 36 percent female. Researchers also drew some conclusions from interviews with mosque leaders.

Bagby said the study focused on the Detroit area but identified trends typical of the broader Islamic community. There are an estimated 6 million to 7 million Muslims in the United States, according to the most reliable statistics.

Other Islamic experts said the findings do reflect trends among pious Muslims across the country.

"I think this is an absolutely accurate study," said Yvonne Haddad, an expert on Islam in America and a professor at the Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding at Georgetown University. "This is exactly what I have been observing in Los Angeles, near Washington and in other parts of the country.

"As a result of 9/11, many women who never put on a scarf are now covering their hair. Many women are starting Koran study groups. This is a response to the incredible anti-Muslim campaign in the United States."

According to the study, more than 85 percent of Detroit-area mosques have experienced an increase in attendance in the last five years and 67 percent have seen growth of 10 percent or more. Fifty-four percent of the Muslims surveyed said they attend mosque prayers every week, and 48 percent of those said they regularly attend other activities held at the mosque, such as social events or religious study sessions.

The large number of immigrants settling in the Detroit area - 51 percent said they had immigrated to the United States since 1980 - is one reason for the high rate of attendance. Immigrants are used to attending mosques regularly in their home countries.

Another reason for the rise in mosque attendance is the growing number of conversions to Islam, according to the study. A total of 362 conversions occurred in Detroit-area mosques from summer 2002 to summer 2003, according to the study. Fifty-six percent of the conversions were among blacks.

Bagby said one of the most significant findings concerns Muslims' views on the primary purpose of a mosque. Thirty-nine percent said the mosque was a center for activities, while 32 percent said it was primarily a place for prayer. Bagby said the view of a mosque as more than a place for prayer has led Muslims to feel more interconnected in the U.S.

"This is a new vision of a mosque. The mosque in the Islamic world is strictly a place where people gather to pray," Bagby said.

When asked what the main priority of a mosque should be, a majority said it was providing Islamic education to adults and children.

"The main concern of mosque participants is that they have a mosque that teaches Islam," the study states.

Principals at Islamic schools across the country say there is an increasing demand among Muslims for an Islamic education.

"There is a growing desire for Islamic schools, especially now that Islamic schools are academically competitive," said Audrey Zahra Williams, principal of the Toledo Islamic Academy in Ohio. "In the 1980s, people laughed when I suggested establishing an Islamic school."

There are also increasing signs that the younger generation of Muslims could be more religious than their parents, say Islamic scholars, from the proliferation of Muslim Students Associations in high schools and colleges to the kind of Islam the youth prefer to practice.

"You have a generation of 20- to 30-year-olds who have options their parents didn't have. They can devote their time not just to making it economically, but making better use of their religion and heritage," said Patrick Cates, a member of the team of researchers who helped Bagby complete the study.

The study shows that 38 percent of those surveyed said they wanted Islam to be flexible enough to take modern times into account. But in the 15 to 20 age group, the greatest number - 29 percent - said they preferred to practice their faith according to the ideas of great classical scholars in Islam.

Despite a feeling that moderate Islam should be practiced in the United States, more than 80 percent of those surveyed said Islamic law should play a greater role in Muslim countries.

As their sense of identity has grown stronger, American Muslims have become more concerned with participating in U.S. politics to influence government policies. Ninety-three percent of those surveyed said they believed Muslims should be involved in politics. Muslim leaders say their primary reason for becoming more active is to change U.S. policies they believe violate their civil rights.

Twenty-six percent of survey participants said they "strongly agreed" that America is immoral, while another 35 percent said they "somewhat agreed."

Sofia's link to the Tribune Article shows that, as usual, groups react to criticism by clinging even more tightly to their basic faith and beliefs. But, again, it is important to differentiate the majority of Muslims from the small group of fundamentalists who, as Bernard Lewis explains, hate the USA for being secularist and modern.
One could almost say that the small group of radical fundamentalists are on the same page as the radical fundamentalist preachers here in the USA.
Strange bedfellows but they both agree that many in the USA are sinful since they do not pray.

The radical fundamentalist right in the USA would, of course, agree with the Islamic radicals that our modernity, which enables Brittany Spears to show her navel and Madonna her decolletage, is abominable.
Perhaps, these groups are correct. Maybe we are Godless and corrupt. From the point of view of the radical Muslim, perhaps we deserved the wake up call on 9/11 to show us what sinners we are.

I see nothing threatening in the actions detailed in Sofia's article. It describes a group of law abiding American citizens. It also describes a group in complete opposition to the Farrakhan's NOI, that the first post of this thread described. Which group are we discussing again?

I think the Black Muslim Movement would be a good start.

This is where the American Muslim movement is experiencing the greatest growth.

They do seem to gravitate to the NOI, although there is growth in the "more authentic" Islamic mosques, as well.

All of these people consider themselves Muslim--all of them say their religion is based on the Islamic religion, though the NOI has carved out a few differences for themselves. I am interested in the entire group, but if you must differentiate, the Black Muslim group is currently the most compelling to me.

I found a great article on why so many are converting-- and why some don't want to be associated with others... and how the women are struggling with the mosques' acceptance of polygamy and prescribed 'discipline' (beating) of misbehaving women.

I'll link it tonight. (Gotta run.) It's several pages long, and appears to be pretty balanced.