The American Muslim Movement.

it is my hope that around the world the status of extreme fundamentalist religious fervour could be likened to that of a severe pimple; it rises to a more and more angry head, and then bursts spewing the puss that has been fomenting inside, and then recedes into a mere blemish on the face of decent society.

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I would hope that you are correct, BoWoGo. I am afraid that you are not. As I am sure you are aware, there is no one as fanatic as a person who professes to die for his religious beliefs.
The suicide bomber in Israel who boards a bus, screams "Allah is great" and kills himself and twenty other innocents just because they are Israelis, is virtually unstoppable since he is the most extreme type of ideologue.

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Virtually unstoppable? Is that like fresh frozen? Or Friendly fire?

I once met a moron called oxy...

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mporter wrote:

I would hope that you are correct, BoWoGo. I am afraid that you are not. As I am sure you are aware, there is no one as fanatic as a person who professes to die for his religious beliefs.
The suicide bomber in Israel who boards a bus, screams "Allah is great" and kills himself and twenty other innocents just because they are Israelis, is virtually unstoppable since he is the most extreme type of ideologue.

fortunately, in spite of a huge cost in human life, they 'wear themselves out'!

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Well, Adrian, perhaps not "virtually unstoppable".

I would respectfully suggest that if you are aware of methods to stop suicide bombers which I may have incorrectly tagged as "virtually unstoppable" you should share them with us, and, by all means, with the Israeli government and all other entities which have had similar problems.

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I would mporter but that issue has nothing to do with "the american muslim movement". You wanna start a new thread, go ahead.

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The research needed to start this thread was my viewing of a local Richmond Muslim 'minister'--my word--and his hate-filled rhetoric, and Christian-baiting.

The other information is public knowledge.

Whether or not Farrakan and others spewing hate, and calling themselves Muslim 'ministers' are viewed to be authentic Muslims by US is beside the point, IMO. They are ACCEPTED by thousands as authentic, and are being led to hate Christians and other non-Muslims under the auspices of Islam. Our streets are filled with such people, and our prisons are bursting at the seams with them.

I think it bears scrutiny.

Isn't there some authentic hierarchy in Islamic religion, which imposes some regulations on churches bearing the Islamic name?

To avoid it won't make it go away.

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Quote:

Isn't there some authentic hierarchy in Islamic religion, which imposes some regulations on churches bearing the Islamic name?

No, there isn't. Is there one in the "christian religion"?

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Yes.

There are Boards and Conventions, which do keep in contact with churches and their doctrines and so forth. A church can lose their ability to call itself a name which connects it to the Baptist leadership. A minister can be dismissed due to spewing hate, or other actions deemed as infractions.

I'm not a Catholic, but I think they keep even tighter controls over what is taught from their pulpits...

Defrocking comes to mind...

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I mean, otherwise I could rent a storefront, put up a sign saying, "Mohammad's Super Truthful Islamic Mosque" and teach child-abuse and cow tipping as ways to get those 77 virgins...

There must be some authority...

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Sofia, not two blocks from my house are two storefront churches - both claiming to be some type of Baptist ministry. Neither of them has services, or practices, that resemble any sort of Christianity I learned about as a child, or as a student of 'World Religions' in high school and university.

Both of them involve a lot of work (sorta baton-twirling stuff) with flags, worship on Saturdays, require participants to fast for days until they become unconscious so that they will have religious visions, and don't allow members to eat pork, beef or crustaceans.

If you asked my Greek Orthodox neighbours, they would tell you that Baptists go to temple on Saturday, parade with flags in the temple, have strict dietary laws and do things to make the members pass out (we see them on the lawns in the school yard occasionally). I'm guessing most Baptists would be surprised to hear these things.

My neighbourhood Baptists practice adult baptism in lakes - that is all many of my neighbours know about 'real' Baptists, so it makes sense to them that these church/temples are Baptist - because they baptize.

Where am I going with this? Well, there are Baptists that other 'good' Baptists would not recognize as such, just as there are Muslims that are far outside what is accepted, and practiced, by 'good' Muslims.

We all need to be careful about how large a paintbrush we are using.

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Re: The American Muslim Movement.

Sofia wrote:

Recently, while out of state, my husband and I were shocked to hear the sermon of an American Muslim on local TV. While he had a right to say what he did, it sparked some questions I thought might make for interesting debate.

I guess the most surprising thing the minister said, while holding up a picture represented to be Jesus was, "Here is the first member of the KKK." He went on to say that Christianity was to blame for racism, the institutional repression of blacks, and other such comments.

Farrakan has made openly racist statements in his sermons.

Our prisons seem to be a breeding ground of Muslim conversion, which could be said to feed on dissatisfaction with the US government, and racism.

The DC sniper was an American Muslim, as were the Baltimore group arrested for plotting an al-Quaida-like act of terrorism, and members reputedly sought a connection with al-Quaida.

--It is a given that there are plenty of peaceable American Muslims--

Do you think there is anything to be concerned about? Are Farrakan's and other minister's racist comments defensible? What are your thoughts on the subject?

There is a fundamental difference between the Nation of Islam - which is what I supect all of the people you listed above belong to - and Islam. I don't know why you're referring to them as "American Muslims."

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Amen on the paintbrush thing.

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I hope someone will notice I was only brushing the specific people I was discussing.

I didn't do a lumping.

ehBeth, your comment was apropo. If they call themselves Baptist, and someone complained to the Southern Baptist Convention or the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, and their teachings didn't jive with whichever Baptist ministry they claim belonging to-- depending on their name, and how far they are from Baptist dogma, they would have to make amendments.

To ILZ-- Because they are American Muslims specifically, not to be confused with Muslims from other nations.

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But Sofia, it would be pretty easy to do that -- the specific people thing -- with any number of religions.

There are a whole lotta criminals who are Christian. Or Baptist, or whatever. It wouldn't take too much to clump 3 or 4 of them and say, "All of these people are Baptist. I think it bears some scrutiny."

There seemed to be a clear point in what you were saying, and that point seemed to be rather a rather alarmist one about American Muslims. All of the elements can be true without it adding up to anything in particular.

If I misread your point, I apologize, and respectfully ask you to state what it is in a way that I'll understand better.

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Sofia wrote:

ehBeth, your comment was apropo. If they call themselves Baptist, and someone complained to the Southern Baptist Convention or the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, and their teachings didn't jive with whichever Baptist ministry they claim belonging to-- depending on their name, and how far they are from Baptist dogma, they would have to make amendments.

More apropos: The moral of the story, children, is that religion is so subjective and so often victimized by the whims of irrational intrepretation that a single text can be used to justify dichotomy upon dichotmy upon dichotomy. Thus, it's retarded.

Quote:

To ILZ-- Because they are American Muslims specifically, not to be confused with Muslims from other nations.

My point is that Muslims - as in those that subscribe to Islam - should not be confused with the Nation of Islam - as in black Americans following the teachings of Farrakhan. A distinction needs to be made between the two.

You do realize that Islam and "American Muslims" in the sense you seem to be using the word, are two separate religions, for all intents and purposes, right?

Besides, there are more Muslims in America than there are members of the Nation of Islam. So, it seems odd to label them "American Muslims."

In any case, if the Nation of Islam is a movement, it is certainly a deflated one, and not one that I'd worry too much about. The urgent and immediate religious threat in America is Christian fundamentalism.

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Quote:

ehBeth, your comment was apropo. If they call themselves Baptist, and someone complained to the Southern Baptist Convention or the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, and their teachings didn't jive with whichever Baptist ministry they claim belonging to-- depending on their name, and how far they are from Baptist dogma, they would have to make amendments.

Or they could change their name to "Jacks Super Truthful Baptist Church".

Sofia, what you are talking about happens in every society and every religion in the world. It's not good, but there's jack you can do about it. Fanatics will always find a forum. The misguided will continue to believe.

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Adrian's comment about "The American Muslim Movement" does not take into account the fact that some American Muslims do indeed take their cue from the increasing radicalism in worldwide Islam.

Bernard Lewis, one of the USA's authorities on Islam, indicates that the "Roots of Muslim Rage" lend fuel to the fire of radical Islamists even in the United States.

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This is dicey territory. None of us wishes to advance some false and simplistic generality about a religious faith. On the other hand, trends can arise which are, if they become too pervasive or powerful, potential dangers. Fundamentalist Islam of the sort forwarded by Usama is certainly such a case. Elsewhere, I've argued that some strains of fundamentalist Christianity are as well, both dangerous and increasingly powerful.

mporter's post on Lewis is a good one. The notions (from Lewis) that secularism and modernity are fundamentalist targets is right on the money, and one can see it in both fundamentalist communities (if in varying degrees of extremism).

As regards extremist Islam, Europe seems to have rather a larger potential problem than do we in North America. But even there, it would be a factual and political error to assume some stance of "Muslims are dangerous." We ought not to put up walls between 'them' and 'us', but rather the opposite.

The American Muslim Movement.

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