Stop publishing torture photos; we get the picture

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I think no more Iraq prison abuse photos should be published to the public. We and the world already get it. More photos will only inflame the situation and create more danger for our troops. They will not cause any more corrective measures than are already under way. They will only cause more US hatred around the world. There is no benefit to be made by showing us more of the abuse. We and the world already do get it! The can of worms cannot be closed.

BBB

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I disagree. i think the pictures need to continue being released. There is a large segment of the loyal Bush supporters who have stated that they saw "no real abuse" or who have called the photos fakes. They need to have the eveidence before them so they can face up to their intellectual and moral cowardice.

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A lot of people sympathise with those prisoners, for whatever reason, but I sympathise more with the elderly invalids who need 24 hour care... and there aren't enough practical nurses... or the children who are shuffled from one foster home to another... or animals that are abused, children and wives that are abused.

We have prisoners here in this country who are treated much worse than those Iraqi prisoners.

I wasn't phased by the photos. I think they just show how desparate the media is for ratings, and its disgraceful.

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See the post above for why they need to continue releasing photos.

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L.R.R.Hood wrote:

A lot of people sympathise with those prisoners, for whatever reason, but I sympathise more with the elderly invalids who need 24 hour care... and there aren't enough practical nurses... or the children who are shuffled from one foster home to another... or animals that are abused, children and wives that are abused.

How nice for you.

Quote:

We have prisoners here in this country who are treated much worse than those Iraqi prisoners.

So, because others recieve worse treatment, the torure in Abu Ghraib is irrlelevent?

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I wasn't phased by the photos. I think they just show how desparate the media is for ratings, and its disgraceful.

And this comment shows how some people really don't deserve to be called "human."

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Hobit
Hobit, do you really think those "loyal Bush supporters" will change their minds by seeing more horrific photos? I don't think so. If they haven't seen the truth by now, nothing will remove their blinders. But more photos will only throw gasoline on burning embers causing more risk to our troops and other Americans here and abroad.

BBB

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Not all of the photos are in government hands. At least some are bound to get out. It's too late to minimize the damage.

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Re: Hobit

BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:

Hobit, do you really think those "loyal Bush supporters" will change their minds by seeing more horrific photos? I don't think so. If they haven't seen the truth by now, nothing will remove their blinders.

You are correct here, BBB:

from Friday's "Intellectual Conservatis,.com":

Quote:

Sure, it shouldn't have happened, and the people responsible should be punished, but let's not forget who we're talking about here. The victims of this abuse were un-uniformed enemy combatants, who were caught fighting on the side of Saddamite guerillas and terrorists! Do I need to remind this woman what these people are all about or the sort of acts they are capable of committing?

SOURCE

BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:

But more photos will only throw gasoline on burning embers causing more risk to our troops and other Americans here and abroad.

Sure, this might well happen.

But: not showing them, will surely nourish the idea that the US wants to hide all those cruelities. People, especially Iraquian and US-citizens, have a right to know about this.

It's like - at a question session in Paris with Tony Blair - French President Jacques Chirac warned: "Every time you humiliate, in one way or another, you create aggressive reflexes."

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Oh, I agree. And I think that beside every Abu Ghraib photo or video, they need to publish a Saddam torture photo or video. Just to put things into perspective, you see. Wink

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What I have yet to see addressed is the reason why the people involved in this criminal activity were taking pictures. What lead them to think that this was something to be casually memorialized? Torture as occurred from time immemorial and while indefensible at least has a historical precedent which allows us to to give the practice meaning though not acceptance. But the idea that this is something to record for your photo album, a record of a time in your life to be shared among friends and family I find disturbing.

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Tarantulas wrote:

Oh, I agree. And I think that beside every Abu Ghraib photo or video, they need to publish a Saddam torture photo or video. Just to put things into perspective, you see.

Sounds like a good idea, to me.

Hobitbob, the fact that our regular prisoners are treated horribly was the reason why I wasn't phased by the photos. Nice try at putting words in my mouth Smile

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Yes, and it presents a picture of American society that is repugnant. If we fail to respond to this flaw, then we send a message to the world that we see this behaviour as appropriate, and perhaps even commentdable.

Tarantulas, just out of curiousity, if "we" are supposely in Iraq to liberate the poor oppressed Iraqis, and bring freedom from this sort of behaviour, the question then becomes "who will free the Iraqis from the Americans?"
Your suggestion that this should be excused because "Saddma wuz worser" is idiotic.

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Tarantulas
Tarantulas, I regret your agreement with me for the bogus reasons you stated. How many times do you have to hear: two wrongs don't make a right" before you give up that pathetic excuse.

I only don't see any good coming from public publication of even more horrific photos than we've already seen in putting a stop to the abuse. The photos are appropriate evidence for prosecuting those responsible all the way up to the commander in chief. They are not suitable for raising TV show ratings, or selling newspapers and magazines. The Media finally did its job well in publishing the story and the photos seen so far. But enough may be enough in further inflaming the Moslem world against US troops. We already get it and so do Moslems throughout the world.

BBB

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L.R.R.Hood wrote:

Tarantulas wrote:
Oh, I agree. And I think that beside every Abu Ghraib photo or video, they need to publish a Saddam torture photo or video. Just to put things into perspective, you see.

Sounds like a good idea, to me.

Hobitbob, the fact that our regular prisoners are treated horribly was the reason why I wasn't phased by the photos. Nice try at putting words in my mouth

So, the truck driver who was being held hostage and ahd his wounds seen to, and in fact had surgery to save his arm while captive, and the medical treatement gioven to Lynch (among other examples) were examples of "horrible treatment?" Are you really this naive?

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Acquiunk
Acquiunk. the guards were using the photos to scare new inmates into talking right away. See my following post for more info:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=24446&highlight=

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Triple B, we have not put a
stop" to the abuse.MSNBC yesterday reported:

Quote:

Commander: No Plans to Close Abu Ghraib
By LOUIS MEIXLER

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - The commander of U.S. detention facilities in Iraq said Saturday the military will continue to operate the Abu Ghraib prison despite calls from some U.S. lawmakers to close it because of a scandal over the abuse of Iraqi inmates.

However, Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller said the United States plans to reduce the prison population. He said 300 inmates had been released last week and about 350 will be released next week.

``Currently we will continue to operate at the Abu Ghraib facility,'' Miller told reporters, adding that interrogations at the prison will also continue.

He said that if orders are received to close Abu Ghraib, the military would probably shift the mission to another facility, Camp Bucca, south of Basra.

Miller insisted that Iraqis were now being held in accordance with the Geneva Conventions and that the abuses recorded in photos distributed around the world were due to the acts of a few individuals.

``The alleged abuses and abuses we have discovered from the investigations appear to be due to leaders and soldiers not following the authorized policy and lack of leadership and supervision,'' Miller told reporters.

``We will ensure that we follow our procedures,'' he added. ``It is a matter of honor. We were ashamed and embarrassed by the conduct of a very, very small number of our soldiers. ... On my honor I will ensure that it will not happen again.''

Miller, former commander of the detention center at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, said he led a 30-member team to Iraq in August and September to make recommendations on how to improve the efficiency of Abu Ghraib.

``As a part of those recommendation we made we used the models we had made at Guantanamo for the use of military police to assist in the success of interrogations,'' Miller said.

He said the team recommended that military police who run the facility ``should be involved in passive intelligence collection'' so that interrogators ``can better understand the mental state of the detainee.''

He said that meant observing the prisoners ``on a 24-hour basis'' to understand ``what their mental attitude was.''

From the above, it would seem that a few loer enlisted will be punished, and nothing will change. The government is counting on the public being stupid enough to moo and go back to chewing its cud, and not notice the duplicity. It is only by continued reporting and investigation of these practices that they may be stopped.

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Re: Acquiunk

BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:

Acquiunk. the guards were using the photos to scare new inmates into talking right away.

With all due respect, I think that you are wromg this time. There have been reports that ther were contests to decide who staged the best shots, and that teh winning photo was placed on screen savers. In addition, photos of torture were interpsered with holiday style snaps in the cameras of most of the prison guards. The guards were people like Tarantulas, who see nothing wrong with torturing others in their charge.

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hobitbob is right. Full disclosure and take the consequences.

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Hobit
I'm really so torn over this issue and it is out of character of me to wish no further publishing of new photos. I'm trying to weigh the harm against any good that might come of it.

One point in favor of continued publishing is that the same general Miller who ran Guantanamo and who instituted the same offending policies there is the same general Miller sent to Iraq to clean up the mess that the media exposed.

I commend the media for finally doing it's job. It was way over due. But now I think some restraint is in order. If the media detects that the Bush administration is not taking full responsibility and taking all appropriate legal steps, then I would probably change my mind about continued publishing of photos.

BBB

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Hobit
Hobit, you may be right about other reasons the guards made photos. The following is a quote from the Time article about their reasons:

"If the soldiers were following orders, why did they photograph themselves in the act? The MPs claim the pictures too were meant to serve as a psychological tool to scare new prisoners into talking. Frederick's uncle says the platoon had tried to soften them up with techniques like sleep deprivation, "but they found the best way was with these photographs, and it apparently worked very effectively." Lawson says his nephew complained about some of the measures and was told, "Don't worry about it." Yet the photos, showing MPs smiling and mugging as they degrade their prisoners, suggest that the accused were hardly acting against their will."

BBB

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Stop publishing torture photos; we get the picture

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