Torture of military prisoners

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As there is no apparent thread devoted to discussion of this issue, I thought perhaps we ought to have one.

There is no question now as to whether or not torture has occured, under both American and Brit commands. According to one Republican Senate commissioner, the American investigations reveal that acts have included not merely abuse and degradation and other such contraventions of the Geneva Convention, but rape and murder as well. We have been alerted by this same commission that pictures (and videos) evidencing acts even worse than what we've so far seen are in the possession of the military and can be expected to find their way to the world press. Further, it may well be the case that such acts are not correctly portrayed as acts of a small group of pathological individuals. Rather, a more plausible and coherent portrayal of what has gone on is more properly seen as a broad and purposeful disregard for the Geneva Conventions. (see here)

The damage to American and British reputations in the world is incalculable. Where we have sought to encourage repressive states or repressed populations to adopt our set of values and political notions, we have had four compelling and factual (if not perfect) arguments to present; our wealth, our respect for sovereign boundaries/self-determinism, our adherence to multi-lateral agreements and our antipathy to the notion of unilateral exercise of power, and our traditions of human and civil rights. A fifth chracteristic, our military strength and dominance along with our willingness to use it other than strictly defensively, has been justifiable only as a consequence of the above arguments or facts about us.

The consequences may be profound, and seem likely to be. Future circumstances which may arise, such as an instance of ethnic-cleansing or significant human rights violations in some corner of the world, or some instance of actual build-up of WOMD in the hands of a dangerous state, will now be immensely more problematic for three reasons. Our credibility regarding our intelligence and our honesty regarding that intelligence is deeply damaged. Secondly, our status as a moral good guy is now profoundly undercut. Thirdly, our reputation as a body which might go in to a problem area and help, rather than make things even worse, has been equally undermined.

More immediately, our problem with the Muslim world has just been increased exponentially. It seems doubtful that Usama himself could have designed a much more agreeable turn of events towards his goals of fomenting hatred towards the West.

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Yup!

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If Bush had even the smallest of cajones he'd fire Rumsfeld immediately and send a clear message to the 25 million Iraqis left shaking their heads in shock and anger of this scandal, that the Americans mean business and do not in any way support or condone this savage behavior by US troops.

But Rumsfeld won't go anytime soon. After all, he's a hand-selected neocon who serves not at the discretion of Bush, but of Poppy and Cheney, who have a long history with this glib, arrogant, SOB.

I agree blatham: UBL couldn't have asked for a better outcome to the military occupation of Iraq to help galvanize ani-American sentiment in the region.

It's another mess -- GOP style.

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maybe it's time for the west to cut any connections to the U.S., untill such time as they clean house, throw these freaks in jail, and elect a human being to run the country?

you know, just a little 'subtle' message!

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In the past three years, both the United State and Britain, in the pursuit of what are fundamentally sound goals, the removal of destructive and oppressive regimes, and the containment of an ideology of destructive nihilism, have instituted and carried out policies that boarder on extreme hubris. Policies which as you have pointed out have contravened some of the basic values of both nations. The immediate corrective to this is admission of this and a return to a bilateral policy of consultation and action. This will be difficult because the hubris is based on a real if over valued recognition of overwhelming economic and military power. Eating crow in this case is going to be humiliating not only for those in power but for the electorate in both nations. We have been conditioned to view the world from the top of the pyramid and it is going to be emotionally difficult to climb down. The longer range corrective is the removal from power of those individuals and groups that brought us to this state of affaires. Given the first requirement that may be even more difficult for the general public of both nations, who have the ultimate power in this situation, to swallow.

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BoGoWo:

I heard a clip this AM on cable news about the family members of one of the women who engaged in this sadistic behavior and they are in utter denial.

"That was not my sister in those photographs."

The burden is felt on both sides.

What a mess.

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There was a previous discussion on the subject that was locked. It turned rather viscious went the shrub supporters turned up as I'm sure this one will.

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While I do not disagree that U.S. and British reputations have been disastrously damaged, and while I, like everybody else, was sickened and repulsed by the photos being circulated, I think it wise to maintain a realistic perspective.

Both nations, through their national leaders, have gone public to offer sincere regrets and to emphasize that these incidents are not who we are any more than the unconscionable treatment of POWs (not to mention the Jews and other 'undesirables') by the Germans and Japanese military in WW II were indicative of who the German and Japanese people are.

I don't know whether it can be done, but I would favor charging the personnel at Abu Graib with war crimes and holding public trials to convict them. And their punishment should be as severe as the law will allow including dishonorable discharge. That would prove 'who we are' with clarity.

Meanwhile as long as we acknowledge whatever culpability we have, make amends as we can, I have faith that Iraqi people and the world people in general are capable of understanding that these horrendous incidents are in fact isolated and are neither condoned nor tolerated by their respective nations and that the offenders will be convicted and punished.

I doubt Osama bin Laden and his ilk needed any additional reinforcement for their unmitigated hatred of western culture and value; therefore I expect this will have little bearing on his mindset or agenda.

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A brief survey of Arab press...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1212087,00.html

I think analysis of this whole situation will get some things wrong if all blame is laid at the feet of either this administration or the Secretary of Defence, though I hold blame to fall most properly in those two places.

Modern military culture, and the shape of the Pentagon/Washington/corporate beast ought to be considered too, as certain tendencies we see here would likely have manifested under a democratic administration as well.

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these incidents are not who we

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charging the personnel at Abu Graib with war crimes and holding public trials to convict them.

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these horrendous incidents are in fact isolated

fox

It's precisely these assumptions, if maintained, which will continue the sorts of tendencies which have led to the problems.

These incidents do reflect who we are. They are not properly conceived or described with the word 'isolated'. And the notion of an over-arching ethic of war, to which all states have no justification in avoiding, speaks directly and exactly towards the US refusal to place itself under the conditios of the ICC.

To place blame on 'a few bad apples' is to attempt an escape into simplicity and false innocence. That is the sort of hubris to which aqu speaks above, and it is, in great part, what has produced the horrid dilemma we are now in.

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wilso:

Yeah, I remember it.

It was probaly the shrub supporter (singular.)

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Quote:

Long before official reports and journalistic exposés revealed the horrific abuse of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib, high-ranking American officers expressed their deep concern that the civilian officials at the Pentagon were undermining the military's traditional detention and interrogation procedures, according to a prominent New York attorney.

Scott Horton, a partner at Patterson, Belknap, Webb and Tyler who now chairs the Committee on International Law of the Association of the Bar of New York City, says he was approached last spring by "senior officers" in the Judge Advocate General Corps, the military's legal division, who "expressed apprehension over how their political appointee bosses were handling the torture issue." Horton, who once represented late Soviet dissident Andrei Sakharov, was serving as the chairman of the bar association's Committee on Human Rights law when the JAG officers first contacted him...

Indeed, Horton says that the JAG officers specifically warned him that Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Douglas J. Feith,one of the most powerful political appointees in the Pentagon, had significantly weakened the military's rules and regulations governing prisoners of war. The officers told Horton that Feith and the Defense Department's general counsel, William J. Haynes II, were creating "an atmosphere of legal ambiguity" that would allow mistreatment of prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/conason/2004/05/07/rights/index.html
(behind a ten second day pass commercial)

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The British press have called these "The pictures that lost the war"

Certainly, Arab moderate opinion, which was so vital to a structured peace in Iraq, has been dealt a savage blow, and a PR victory of immense proportions has been handed to the anti-western arab lobby.

By the way, in the New York Times today there is a piece about the US penal service which says that many of the practices highlighted here, are commonplace in many prisons in the USA.

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By the way, in the New York Times today there is a piece about the US penal service which says that many of the practices highlighted here, are commonplace in many prisons in the USA.

McTag

Yes. This points to how such behavior is 'us'.

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there is a dark, dark, image at the end of this murky tunnel that the current U.S. administration is digging;

what if the rest of the world starts to think that maybe all the hatred targeting the 'flagship' of western culture actually has a basis in 'fact'?

"hatred" is itself the phenomenon of 'myth', but nothing stokes the fires more effectively than a series of supporting facts!

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blatham wrote:

To place blame on 'a few bad apples' is to attempt an escape into simplicity and false innocence. That is the sort of hubris to which aqu speaks above, and it is, in great part, what has produced the horrid dilemma we are now in.

An attempt to blame the whole of society is equeally simplistic. There are some 250 Million+ people in the US. Blaming them all for the actions of a group of less than 50 is hyperbole.

These people acted against everything that the US has held as the moral and ethical treatment of prisoners and they repulsed people from across the political spectrum.

They had a chain of command. Someone within that chain decided that they didn't have to play by the rules and they allowed the people under them to run wild. An attempt to paint that as a reflection of the mindset of an entire country is about as simplistic as it gets.

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. http://www.iraqfoundation.org/hr/2000/hrnews/cmar21_icp.html

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/world/iraq/20040420-0918-iraq.html

Where is the outrage from the Arab press here?

I get a little weary of the one-sided nature of national reporting. Where is the condemnation of the insurgents who fired morter rounds into Abu Graib? Where was the outrage at systematic torture and executions of prisoners by the Iraqis? Where was the outrage in the Arab press of the treatment of civilian contractors murdered at Fallujah?

I do not in any way suggest atrocities committed by others are any kind of excuse or mitigation of degradation, rape, torture, murder of Iraqi prisoners at the hands of American and British soldiers. But are atrocities somehow worse because they are committed by Brits or Americans? How is it that we are to be forever condemned while others are not even criticized?

Again it is wise to maintain perspective.

I think that's all I have to contribute to this thread and I accept that most or all of the rest of you do not agree.

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I repeat:

in my estimation, while the U.S. allies are stunned by the actions of the current administration, and cannot in good conscience support any or all of these (seen as) criminal acts, the people of the United states are, i think seen as 'dupes' beset by a rogue administration, and will be given the benefit of the doubt, until they have had a chance to throw these rogue elements out of office.

Re-elect them at your (and our) peril!

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An attempt to blame the whole of society is equeally simplistic. There are some 250 Million+ people in the US. Blaming them all for the actions of a group of less than 50 is hyperbole.

That is not the notion.

Two weeks previously, how many of the posters here who tend towards opinions which support the present administration and its ideology, would have granted - if you or I had said that torture is going on, and that it involves rape and murder, and is found in many prisons in Iraq/Afghanistan - or even considered it possible? Why not?

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George Bush said, on arab TV, "This is not the America I know".

Now admittedly GWB is famously ignorant, even though he should have known about this, having been Governor of Texas, but the NYT report mentioned above says this is common enough in American prisons.

So no, we're not talking about only 50 or so people here. The official military involvement in abuse and degradation of prisoners is apparently much wider than that.

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Torture of military prisoners

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