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Fri 30 Apr, 2004 07:38 am
"The liberators are worse than the dictators."
Quote:Iraqi Prison Photos Mar U.S. Image
By Paul Majendie
LONDON (Reuters) - Photos of U.S. soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners drew international condemnation on Friday, prompting the stark conclusion that the U.S. campaign to win the hearts and minds of Iraqis is a lost cause.
"This is the straw that broke the camel's back for America," said Abdel-Bari Atwan, editor of the Arab newspaper Al Quds Al Arabi. "The liberators are worse than the dictators."
"They have not just lost the hearts and minds of Iraqis but all the Third World and the Arab countries," he told Reuters.
The CBS News program "60 Minutes II" on Wednesday broadcast photos taken at the Abu Ghraib prison late last year showing American troops abusing some Iraqis held at what was once a notorious center of torture and executions under toppled President Saddam Hussein (news - web sites).
The pictures showed U.S. troops smiling, posing, laughing or giving the thumbs-up sign as naked, male Iraqi prisoners were stacked in a pyramid or positioned to simulate sex acts with one another.
Britain has been America's staunchest ally in Iraq (news - web sites) but alarm has spread over strong-arm U.S tactics, support for Prime Minister Tony Blair (news - web sites) has plummeted and the pictures were widely condemned on Thursday.
"When it comes to winning hearts and minds, the U.S. Army hasn't got a clue," wrote the Daily Mirror tabloid, one of several British papers to splash the photos on its front page.
"Nobody underestimates how wrong this is," Blair's spokesman told reporters. "Actions of this kind are in no way condoned by the coalition."
The publicity could not have been worse in the Arab world with the sexual humiliation depicted in the pictures particularly shocking.
"That really, really is the worst atrocity," Atwan said. "It affects the honor and pride of Muslim people. It is better to kill them than sexually abuse them."
MUSCLE-BOUND OX
Saudi Arabia's English-language Arab News daily said: "The greatest loss the Americans face is to their reputation, not simply in the Middle East but in the world at large.
"U.S. military power will be seen for what it is, a behemoth with the response speed of a muscle-bound ox and the limited understanding of a mouse."
In Geneva, the International Committee of The Red Cross voiced concern.
"We take this extremely seriously. Torture is forbidden in any circumstances of any person detained in the world. Humiliation and degrading treatment is a form of torture," chief spokeswoman Antonella Notari told Reuters.
The photographs were splashed across many leading newspapers in Italy, which is anxiously following the fate of three Italians being held hostage in Iraq.
"Torture in Iraq: American horrors revealed on TV," the left-wing L'Unita said in a headline while la Repubblica daily said the images were "irrefutable" proof of torture.
"It wasn't psychological pressure or simple mistreatment or illegitimate detention as in Guantanamo, but true, classic and irrefutable torture," the paper wrote in an editorial, citing forced, public sodomy as one of the gravest offences.
Calling for an independent inquiry, Amnesty International said: "There is a real crisis of leadership in Iraq with double standards and double speak on human rights.
"The prison was notorious under Saddam Hussein -- it should not be allowed to become so again," said the human rights pressure group.
"Our extensive research in Iraq suggested that this is not an isolated incident," it said. "Detainees have reported being routinely subjected to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment during arrest and detention."
(Additional reporting by Will Dunham in Washington, Stephanie Nebehay in Geneva, Ghaida Ghantous in Dubai, Shasta Darlington in Italy)
So, where do we go from here?
Good question, hobitbob. I am starting to wonder if a forced withdrawal, a la Vietnam, isn't in the cards. The neo-cons can say this war is not Vietnam, but it sure smells like it to me.
"Calling for an independent inquiry, Amnesty International said: "There is a real crisis of leadership in Iraq with double standards and double speak on human rights".
This is where we are so I think the first step is fairly obvious.
Those that are guilty of these offenses are being punished.
It seems to me that Americans have a fascination with building up heroes, celebrities, politicians, only to hungrily take them down with a perverse pleasure after a perceived mistake, most often sourced from a biased media. I don't see much difference between the American right and left, and therefore, the arguments for one vs. the other makes little sense to me.
Does anyone know if British soldiers engaged in this dispicable behaviour?
I recall some British soldiers were disciplined for this last year. Off to class now, but will look into it this PM.
McGentrix wrote:Those that are guilty of these offenses are being punished.
How? Suspended for a month without paycheck for this particular month? Given harsh warning by commander? Toilet cleaning for a week?
And what would "proud"*** Americans demand as a punishment for Iraqis responsible for eventual abusing of american prisoners in same way?
legend:
*** "proud" - does not apply to real proud Americans, most of which are ashamed by actions of US govt. in Iraq
If anyone knows what will happen to civilians (who are not subject to military law) who were involved please let me know.
Don't worry. As long as they didn't take any pictures of flag draped coffins, I think they will be alright.
Terrorism
The difference between terrorists and those claiming to be the "good" fighting the "evil" becomes blurred.
The Stanford Prison Psy. Project pointed to evidence that most people can degrade into barbarism given the circumstances.
The USA prison situations in Iraq and Gitmo are set-ups for abuse due to lack of oversight and rule of law.
Of course, in most of these situation the standard spin is "these are isolated situations."
The USA has lost the Mission in Iraq. The Military can win battles but the war for the "hearts and minds" has failed miserably, just as has Bushco.
it's not sad day for your country Deecups. I mean, maybe it is because many Americans like to believe that they really are something special, while they're not. Fact is that those things happen in all wars, on all sides. So, this is not sad day for USA (sad day for USA was when Bush was elected, however this can be changed pretty soon), this is just sad day for those that were believing that soldiers in Iraq are brave young people, "flower of nation", good and devoted Christians that are so nice and brave and everything so all "we" can do is just pray for happy returning of those role models.
Of course, there are SOME of really good young or old people that are in the army. Some. Most of them are basically scum. In US Army. In Iraqi, Peruvian, Belgian or Nepalese Army. In all armies. (Edited: it does not apply to special circumstances, like for example, when one country is attacked by another one and majority of male adult population is drafted)
It's a sad day for those Americans that will moralize eternally to other nations.
For others of you it doesn't have to be sad day. It can even turn out to be something like "enlightening day".
It would be nice to moralize to Americans now, because Americans always moralize to everyone. But honest person can't do that.
Unfortunately for all humankind, they didn't do anything that others are not doing in the war. So, importance of this is on one completely different level.
america may have company in torture scandal
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3675215.stm
every picture tells a story
the chickens have come home to roost
in the form of a photograph
now the game is up
and what does freedom cost
in gunships
bodybags
and corpses
pride has gone
respect is shot
so who can say
we were right
to go to war
and steal another's land
what gives politicians
and the military
the right to ape
the heavyhanded deeds
of the trenches
and the holocaust
acts that soil our past
now feet of clay
brains of sand
are trapped inside
a cul-de-sac
as they try to
force their way
on an alien creed
the roosters seed will produce
a vile version of the curate's egg
that will for ever foul our lives
Craven de Kere wrote:If anyone knows what will happen to civilians (who are not subject to military law) who were involved please let me know.
Good question. We know that "civillian contractors" have been implicated in these sort of things in the past. A group of US security "contractors" in Kosovo were caught running a child brothel, and were not punished becasue they had immunuity due to the status of their contract with the UN.
Considering the reliance the US has placed on contractors for supporet services, I have a feeling that some of Bechtel's people are going to be in trouble again.
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