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U.S. Snipers Firing on Ambulances in Fallujah

 
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 12:13 am
Yep.

Read the other side?
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Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 12:29 am
Yes I did. The result in inconclusive.
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Adrian
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 12:40 am
What Sanchez says carries more weight than what is said by the person in the ambulance BEING shot at? Rolling Eyes
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 12:50 am
Adrian wrote:
What Sanchez says carries more weight than what is said by the person in the ambulance BEING shot at? Rolling Eyes


Certainly, since he's


a) an US-American,
b) a general,
c) an US-American general.

Crying or Very sad
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pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 12:56 am
!
The glorious military of Amerika never lies or commits atrocities. To even question this is traitorous.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 06:27 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Adrian wrote:
What Sanchez says carries more weight than what is said by the person in the ambulance BEING shot at? Rolling Eyes


Certainly, since he's


a) an US-American,
b) a general,
c) an US-American general.

Crying or Very sad


That is exactly why his statement carries more weight. If you can tell me that you can tell that a bullet is American or not as it flies past, then you must have some super powerful skills of deduction. I am sure that the driver BELIEVES that he was being shot at by american forces, but his belief vs. a US generals statement? I'll take the Generals statement every day and twice on Sundays.
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Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 07:54 am
Exactly. One person saw a silhouette that looked a little like an American soldier and then someone shot, so now let's blame it all on the Americans.
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greenumbrella
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 09:09 am
"The news story doesn't say that ambulances are being shot at by U.S. snipers. Jeez..." tarantulas

Yes, in fact, it does say just that mate.

Additionally, Fallujah residents say Marines are opening fire randomly on unarmed civilians and have attacked clearly marked ambulances, both violations of the Fourth Geneva Convention, to which the United States is a signatory. Aid workers angrily pointed out bullet holes in the driver's side windshield of one ambulance, saying its operator had been lightly wounded by US troops firing as the emergency vehicle passed.
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Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 09:28 am
greenumbrella wrote:
Additionally, Fallujah residents say Marines are opening fire randomly on unarmed civilians and have attacked clearly marked ambulances...

I wonder if they were quoting the Syrian Fallujah residents or the Saudi Fallujah residents. It must have been someone looking to score some points against the US, because US MARINES DO NOT RANDOMLY OPEN FIRE ON UNARMED CIVILIANS. And anyone who says they do is lying. Period.

Here's another opinion about how to handle the situation. I don't agree with all of it but he has some interesting ideas.

GETTING IRAQ RIGHT

By RALPH PETERS

April 29, 2004 -- WHERE'S Rudy Giuliani when we really need him? Looking back on a year of mistakes in Iraq, it's clear he would have been a better choice to run our occupation than those we sent.
Hizzoner's great insight was a blinding flash of the obvious: Respect for the law in great things starts with respect for the law in small things. Want to reduce urban violence? Bust the juvie who jumps the subway turnstile. Before he kills somebody.

It's appalling how we've blustered on about building a civil society and a rule-of-law democracy in Iraq, while letting the streets degenerate into a wilderness. It began with the post-war orgy of looting. Our over-confident leaders looked away. Yes, some of the initial destruction after Saddam's fall was an inevitable blowing off of steam by a long-oppressed population. But gutting museums, libraries and hospitals didn't fall into the post-game-exuberance category.

We never made more than a half-hearted effort to enforce order on Iraq's streets thereafter. Often, we made no effort at all - in terror-cities such as Fallujah, Ramadi or Samarra. Even when street thugs danced atop damaged U.S. vehicles in Baghdad, we treated them as if they were respectable citizens expressing their rights of free speech.

The truth is that, after conquering a vast state and deposing a monstrous dictator, the Bush administration didn't really want to get involved.

News from the briar patch, guys: We're in it now.

If anything has encouraged insurgents, terrorists and opportunist thugs in Iraq, it's been our lack of resolve to enforce order. The effect has reached beyond the country's borders. We've never made a serious effort to view our actions (or inaction) through regional eyes - except to recite mistaken claims that we mustn't use too much force for fear of alienating those who are already our enemies.

Whether among the confused people of Iraq or in the squalor of the greater Arab world, those images, repeated almost daily, of Iraqi gangstas jumping up and down on our burned-out combat vehicles created, then reinforced, the impression that American troops not only could be defeated, but were being defeated.

The truth was irrelevant. In the age of the satellite dish, the image trumps all. The greatest recruiting tool for our enemies in Iraq and beyond its borders has been those clips of Iraqis plundering disabled Humvees with impunity.

It may be too late to recover the chips we've squandered at the strategic poker table. But we have to try our damnedest to come from behind.

In addition to the military reduction of the last breath of resistance in Fallujah and the arrest or killing of the renegade cleric Muqtada al-Sadr in Najaf, we need to change the rules on Iraq's streets.

If any adult touches a damaged or destroyed U.S. military vehicle, he must be shot. Start with a one-week warning period to get out the new rules. Then execute. The Iraqis playing trampoline on the hoods of our charred vehicles aren't the ones who will build a better future.

As for the juvies, send them to reformatory camps. No exceptions, even if daddy's the Sheik of Araby.

If we can't or won't bring order to that festering country's streets, we'll never see a lawful state emerge. I still believe that most Iraqis want democracy - in some adjusted form that gives them a voice in their country's affairs. But they want and need security even more. You can't build a legal economy or hold honest elections if you can't control the neighborhoods in broad daylight.

Law first, then democracy. Sorry, but it doesn't work the other way around.

The lack of resolution and common sense on the part of the Coalition Provisional Authority has plunged Iraq into crisis. You can't change history's direction on the cheap. From turning a corner six months ago - we were doing exactly that - our diplomats' taste for displays of weakness and empty "negotiations" dragged the country back from the brink of success.

So, as the hordes of punk terrorists are merrily ringing our doorbell, here are "three simple rules for dating Iraq":

Bring order to the streets, no matter what it takes: If you shoot plunderers and the Arab world wails, too bad. If we won't pay the price of unpopularity in the short-term, we'll fail and be despised for decades to come. Changing the direction of the Middle East is not about immediate popularity - it's about go-the-distance effectiveness.

Never interrupt an ongoing military operation for "negotiations": Finish the job, then talk. In the Middle East, strength, not chitchat, elicits respect.

Add the stick to the carrot: Stop this nonsense of trying to bribe terrorists and murderous Ba'athists to love us. Instead of pouring money into cities and town that kill American soldiers, expend development funds on the communities that behave. The present policy of rewarding those who assassinate our troops is as unacceptable as it is counterproductive.

This doesn't take a genius. Just the sort of common sense that Rudy Giuliani brought to the greatest city in the world. Baghdad doesn't need another "brilliant" diplomat. It needs a Wyatt Earp.

Ralph Peters is the author of "Beyond Baghdad: Postmodern War and Peace."

Link
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 10:18 am
Listening to Fox News Networks military gurus yesterday--two recently retired colonels who have kept up on things--they both agreed that the biggest mistake we've made in the war on Iraq was in disbanding the Republican Guard. We should have kept them intact and utilized them as the national security. They have now been incorporated into the militant resistance and in some cases we are fighting them again.

Who made the decision to disband them? According to these colonels it was the Pentagon - Paul Bremer abetted by Colin Powell.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 10:28 am
Well, not only the Republican Guards -which were by some before the war considered to be "Special Forces" - were disbanded, but the army as well.

Which is quite understandable, since "why should you pay an army you just spent blood and treasure to defeat?" as some said.


Personally, I'd liked that idea :wink:
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 11:02 am
What does the US get out of shooting at unarmed ambulances? That is the only reason I don't really believe they are doing that on purpose. Unless the tension has so built up among the troops there they are crazy or something.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 11:09 am
If you recall, back in November the US sent military observers to Israel to learn the tactics by which the IDF was "succesfully" containing the Palestinian revolts. The IDF routinely fires on ambulances, claiming afterward that tey are suspected of ferrying explosives, etc... The fact that no one has found evidence of them actually doing so seems to be beside the point. I wonder if this simlar action in Iraq isn't an attemtp to frighten (terrorize?) the population into submission? the ignorance of military history that our military displays is rather apalling. Studies have shown that attempts to demoralize civillian populations oiften have the opposite effect. Consider the results of strategic bombing in WWII./ Far from demoralizing the populations of Germany, England, and Japan, the resolve of those populations was usually hardened against the perpetrators of these acts.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 11:15 am
That is indeed an interesting angle Hobitbob, and if it is found to be true that American snipers ARE firing on ambulances, then I hope they and their commanders face the appropriate discipline for their actions.

However, that is only one angle...it is also possible that American snipers are NOT firing upon ambulances and it is merely insurgent propaganda to keep the civilian population on edge and not trusting American forces to do what is right for them.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 11:18 am
McGentrix wrote:
not trusting American forces to do what is right for them.
\
Anyone who would "trust US forces to do what's right for them" is an idiot or insane.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 11:22 am
That does seem to be your opinion.
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emclean
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 12:14 pm
i alwas thought that snipers did not usuly wear a k-pot or flack vest, both interfear with movement.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 12:43 pm
emclean wrote:
i alwas thought that snipers did not usuly wear a k-pot or flack vest, both interfear with movement.

Pretty much everyone is in flak vests and kevlars nowadays.
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Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 12:57 pm
A real sniper wears a Ghillie Suit and a ball cap turned backward.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 12:58 pm
Maybe in your fantasies, but not in modern MOUT. Looking like a water starved shrubbery would not do one much good in a city.
0 Replies
 
 

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