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Fair play? or Dirty Pool?

 
 
Foxfyre
 
Reply Wed 28 Apr, 2004 07:50 am
Following is a piece re an alleged plot that the Dems are planning to disrupt the GOP convention. Is this tantamount to disrupting the orderly political process? What if the tables were turned and it was GOP supporters planning to disrupt the Democrat Convention?

Fair play? or Despicable?

April 28, 2004
G.O.P. Protesters Plan to Infiltrate GOP Convention as Volunteers
By MICHAEL SLACKMAN
New York Times

It is accepted as an article of faith among protesters planning to demonstrate against the Republican National Convention this summer that agents seeking to undermine their efforts have infiltrated their ranks. But now the protesters are talking about infiltrating the convention to undermine the event itself.

"Really?" said Kevin Sheekey, president of the New York City Host Committee, when told that protesters were talking about flooding the ranks of volunteers to disrupt convention operations.

The city is obligated to find a total of 8,000 New Yorkers to volunteer to help things run smoothly, and would-be protesters are hoping that by signing up, they can work from the inside during the convention, scheduled Aug. 30 through Sept. 2.

"A lot of people are talking about it in general," said William Etundi Jr., a founder of counterconvention.org, a Web site that serves as a bulletin board for anti-convention activities. "The Republicans are coming to New York City, so maybe the real New York should come to them."
Until now, the host and the guest have been treating each other with kid gloves, each insisting that it is a relationship of choice that benefits everyone. As the convention preparations quicken and the organizers reach out beyond the city leadership with the volunteer drive, that sense of mutual advantage may be revealed as more wishful than actual.
It is hard to know exactly how much traction the idea of protesters posing as volunteers will have.

Still, there is evidence that the idea of volunteering, then not showing up, or showing up and using anti-Republican language has interested many people.

The biggest public proponent of the idea is a 37-year-old computer consultant from Philadelphia, David A. Lynn, who has created a Web site called shadowprotest.org. It is calling on protesters to volunteer at both the Republican convention and the Democratic National Convention, which will be held in Boston earlier in the summer. Mr. Lynn has issued press releases, and tried to sell his idea across the Internet, where it has picked up some momentum. . . .

. . ."Those sort of things would harm the city," Mr. Sheekey said. "Those wouldn't be anti-R.N.C. protests. Those would be people protesting New York City."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/28/nyregion/28convention.html?ei=5062&en=8efc6c328bf64d26&ex=1083729600&partner=GOOGLE&pagewanted=print&position=
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 1,820 • Replies: 36
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infowarrior
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Apr, 2004 08:03 am
I don't know if "fairness" has anything to do with it.

After all, attend any large, public march in support of a woman's right to choose, labor rights, gay rights, the Million Mom March, etc., and you will always find a contingent of radical, rightwingers from GOP ranks, doing their utmost best to disrupt the march.

A few examples of the GOP agenda at work are:

-posters with pictures of bloody meat arranged in shape of an fetus

-posters proclaiming "God Hates Fags" & "AIDS is God's Punishment"

-Mao and Stalin standing in front of a pile of handguns

What the Bush supporters either fear or forget is the level of anger in the United States over the 2000' election and direction Bush has taken the country.

The "Great Uniter" has become the "Great Divider" and the GOP Convention had better just brace themselves for what is to come.
0 Replies
 
emclean
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Apr, 2004 08:38 am
Quote:
Following is a piece re an alleged plot that the Dems are planning to disrupt the GOP convention. Is this tantamount to disrupting the orderly political process? What if the tables were turned and it was GOP supporters planning to disrupt the Democrat Convention?


Foxfire, did you look at the web site? He is planning on doing it to both parties. I think it would be great. All he is purposing is for voluntaries to sine up and not show up, for both conventions.

I guess it is fair then, both sided get it.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Apr, 2004 08:47 am
What website emclean? The piece is from the NY Times and says nothing about anyone doing it to both sides. Do you have a link?
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emclean
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Apr, 2004 10:00 am
link
it was mentioned in the story.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Apr, 2004 10:14 am
I guess I'm not seeing in either the NY Times piece or the Counter Convention website where the GOP has any plans to disrupt the Democrat Convention.

The Counter Convention website is especially reprehensible however. So much for the ideas of free speech and civil discourse.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Apr, 2004 10:29 am
Foxfyre wrote:
So much for the ideas of free speech......


This is a very ironic statement.
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emclean
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Apr, 2004 10:51 am
sorry foxfyre, i put up the wrong link this one it the one i was refering to.click me
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Apr, 2004 11:05 am
Hmmm, emclean, interesting. Really dumb and wrong I think, but interesting. I'm not sure the group trying to organize disruption of the GOP convention are part of Lynn's group, however. He is just cited as supporting it.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Apr, 2004 11:11 am
And Craven, yeah I would see how the statement could be seen as ironic. I think, however, that it is a stretch to say people are only excercising their right to 'free speech' when they use it to attempt to deny others their right to speech and lawful assembly. It is one thing to carry signs and chant outside the convention though I think those who do that do their cause a disservice. It is quite another to intentionally disrupt the convention making it more difficult or impossible for it to conduct its business. I think that would be reprehensible.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Apr, 2004 11:31 am
Foxfyre wrote:
And Craven, yeah I would see how the statement could be seen as ironic. I think, however, that it is a stretch to say people are only excercising their right to 'free speech' when they use it to attempt to deny others their right to speech and lawful assembly.


But this is the paradox. You, in turn are censuring their expression. Are you violating free speech? Of course not! It's just censure, which is an integral part of the rights secured by free speech.

Important to remember is that the legal notion of free speech is a reference to the government restricting it. Censure by citizens is not the same as government censorship.

Quote:
It is one thing to carry signs and chant outside the convention though I think those who do that do their cause a disservice. It is quite another to intentionally disrupt the convention making it more difficult or impossible for it to conduct its business. I think that would be reprehensible.


I agree, I think the plan is idiotic. But it has nothing whatsoever to do with free speech. The freedom of speech is not harmed in any way shape of form in this scenario.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Apr, 2004 11:56 am
Craven writes:
Quote:
Censure by citizens is not the same as government censorship.


Pondering this. How about we phrase it that the Dems are plotting a scheme to disrupt the Republican convention by denying them opportunity to exercise their lawful right to free speech and peaceful assembly?
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Apr, 2004 12:01 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
How about we phrase it that the Dems are plotting a scheme to disrupt the Republican convention by denying them opportunity to exercise their lawful right to free speech and peaceful assembly?


Personally, I think it would be a false statement. I do not envision the convention being affected much.

We shall see. I predict that this will be a non-issue and that no fears of infringement on free speech and such will be realized.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Apr, 2004 12:08 pm
Probably so. But the fact that it is even being considered says much about the mindset, intellect, and values of those proposing it and I don't mean any of that in any kind of flattering context.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Apr, 2004 12:27 pm
I would like to point out that, despite the text of the article, Fox has characterized this as Democrats planning to disrupt the Republican convention. In fact, the article does not identify any political affiliation of those planning to "infiltrate" the RNC event, and points out that the same persons might well attempt to do that to the Dems.

It helps, Fox, if you don't see the world in all polarized terms--it's not all black and white, us and them. Such a dichotomous view of all aspects of politics and society mitigates against understanding.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Apr, 2004 12:58 pm
And it helps Setanta if you don't purport to characterize 'how I see'. The only reference I (or the writer of the article) made to Democrats was in a hypothetical statement in banter with Craven. And I essentially agreed with his assessment that the statement was incorrect as presented.

Now if you agree that it is reprehensible to disrupt a political convention, there is no debate. If you think it constructive to disrupt a political convention, let's hear your rationale for that.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Apr, 2004 01:05 pm
Fox wrote:
Following is a piece re an alleged plot that the Dems are planning to disrupt the GOP convention. Is this tantamount to disrupting the orderly political process? What if the tables were turned and it was GOP supporters planning to disrupt the Democrat Convention?


This is the paragraph with which you opened this specious assault on an entire political party because of either your inability to see the world in other than dichotomous terms, or an avid desire to paint the Democrats in the worst hues possible. So, in fact this statement of yours: "The only reference I (or the writer of the article) made to Democrats was in a hypothetical statement in banter with Craven."--is an outright lie--the proof of which is the paragraph which i quoted above, and which you wrote.

So there is ground for debate, if you will continue to assert, despite the evidence, that you did not immediately cast this in dichotomous, partisan terms. I am not constrained to debate on terms which you dictate. When you have your partisan blinders on, i am going to point it out, whether or not you like it, or think it appropriate grounds for debate.
0 Replies
 
Deecups36
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Apr, 2004 01:17 pm
-posters proclaiming "God Hates Fags" & "AIDS is God's Punishment"

Yes, I have seen this pip with my very own eyes and it's sickening and fills me with rage.

The best the right-wingnuts have to offer.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Apr, 2004 01:21 pm
Tell you what... don't lump the right with those guys and we won't lump the left with environmental terrorists or other idiots from the FAR left, ok?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Apr, 2004 01:29 pm
Okay Setanta. You made your point and I concede that I did write the opening paragraph. It was a follow up to another thread elsewhere and I should have qualified it that "some are alleging that the Democrats. . ." If I had reread it, I would have corrected it. I didn't so I'll take my lumps on that.

However, shall we discuss now what the probable party affliliation is of those willing to volunteer to disrupt the GOP convention?
0 Replies
 
 

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