Wishful Thinking Via Imagery

@revelette2,

Uh-huh . . . have you got a scriptural citation for that? You know, an unambiguous staement?

@Enaj,

Enaj wrote:

Anything that hurts another....such as adultery, is bad, is wrong, and isn't okay just because you think that it is; unless you are the author and authority on morality.

Are you saying that the Bible's writers and editors are the authors and authorities on morality? If so, on what basis are you saying it?

1 Reply

@Setanta,

Set said:

Quote:

have you got a scriptural citation for that? You know, an unambiguous statement?

I assume you mean this:?

me:

Quote:

Jesus said he came to fulfill the law

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

me

Quote:

on the cross he said it was finished

John 19:30 30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

1 Reply

@revelette2,

revelette2 wrote:

Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, on the cross he said it was finished. What do you think he meant by "it is finished?"

While I don't always agree with Setanta's provocative style, I very much agree with him on the substance here. He asked you for a Biblical source for your claim that Jesus actually did fulfill the law. You gave him a quote that may or may not have anything to do with Jesus fulfilling the law. And when he called you on it, you responded with a fallacious argument from ignorance: "I don't see how else this quote is supposed to make sense". (I'm paraphrasing.)

So what? Maybe the quote doesn't make any sense. Maybe it makes sense in a way that neither you, nor Setanta, nor anybody else in this thread understands. No matter. Either way, the fact that we don't see how a quote makes sense does not entitle us to make up our own sense and infuse it into the quote.

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

Oh, I agree that the Bible says adultery is bad. I just disagree that adultery is bad.

I actually meant to say "fornication", not "adultery". "Fornication" was the example I had chosen in the first place. And unlike adultery, fornication doesn't in itself hurt anyone.

But even in the case of adultery, my point still applies. Adultery is wrong, but it isn't a public wrong. It's a private wrong against the spouse whom the adulterer contracted to be in an exclusive relationship with. So if Biblical law prescribed that adulterers give some form of restitution to the spouses they wronged, fine with me. But to treat it as a public wrong? A capital crime, no less? That's cruel, arbitrary, and unjust. And just because Jesus got this particular adultress off the hook, that doesn't change the injustice of the law itself.

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@Thomas,

Well, on every other book, we use our reasoning to find the meanings of difficult passages, I don't see why the bible would be any different. To me it is as plain as the nose on my face that when Jesus said on the cross "It is finished" he meant that he fulfilled the law and the prophesies. All of the epistles and mostly Hebrews explain it all in great detail.

1 Reply

@revelette2,

revelette2 wrote:

Well, on every other book, we use our reasoning to find the meanings of difficult passages, I don't see why the bible would be any different.

And in interpreting every other book, it is unacceptable to claim that an ambiguous word like "it" has to mean "the law" because you can't think of anything else it could mean.

revelette2 wrote:

Jesus said on the cross "It is finished" he meant that he fulfilled the law and the prophesies. All of the epistles and mostly Hebrews explain it all in great detail.

In that case, you should be able to easily find a quote in the epistles that unambiguously states: "Jesus fulfilled the law".

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@revelette2,

So, you take one quote from a synoptic gospel, which does not refer to the alleged execution of the putative Jesus, and then you attempt to tie that in with quite a different passage from the one gospel is not synoptic--and you expect to be taken seriously? I seems to me that if he said "it is finished," and then gave up the ghost, he very likely was describing his own death.

What amazes me is that you can't seem to see that your interpretations are convenient to what you want to believe in the first place.

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@Setanta,

You mean, when a man says "it is over" and then dies, the word "it" in his sentence might be referring to his own life? You're such a contrarian!

1 Reply

@Setanta,

Setanta: What amazes me is that you can't seem to see that your interpretations are convenient to what you want to believe in the first place.
----------------

Hey Pot! Howzit hangin'?

You want desperately to believe the patently ludicrous notion that the phony dictators the USA installed in Vietnam were actually elected by the people of Vietnam.

That way you can tell yourself that you didn't take part in the massive war crimes that the USA committed against Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos.

You are such a hypocrite!

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@Setanta,

From the very beginning of Jesus's ministry he was talking about doing his father's business. In the weeks before his death, he was really stressing the coming hour of his death and the coming kingdom. The entire reason he came to earth was to save man from sin.

Quote:

John 17:
17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

1 Reply

I worked for and voted for Barry Goldwater.
( He was not a theocrat. )
I continue to support his filosofy.
Definitionally, that shows that I am on the far right.
I am NOT a theocrat.
This Republic was NOT created by theocrats.
Being conservative means being ORTHODOX in rigid acceptance
of the filosofy of the Founders, as expressed in the Constitution.
As ice is constituted of water, so government is constituted of the CONSTITUTION.
That Instrument does not provide for theocracy;
therefore, anyone who deviates therefrom,
including all theocrats are LIBERALS because thay are deviant.

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

How do you think Barry Goldwater would make senator in the current Republican party while saying things like these?

Barry Goldwater wrote:

Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them.

Barry Goldwater also wrote:

You don't need to be 'straight' to fight and die for your country. You just need to shoot straight."

Barry Goldwater sure doesn't sound like a Republican who could win a primary today. So if liberalism and theocracy are both unacceptable to you, just who is left for you to vote for?

1 Reply

I can't believe the way you people have turned this into a religious debate. Can we please get to the point and discuss how Sara Palin is a dumb c##t? Razz

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@revelette2,

None of which addresses whether or not the law had been vacated.

1 Reply

@blueveinedthrobber,

Why? Is Sarah Palin running for anything?

1 Reply

@blueveinedthrobber,

Illustrative, Bear, of how phony are the protestations about off topic comments. That meme is only used to try to divert from uncomfortable issues.

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@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

How do you think Barry Goldwater would make senator
in the current Republican party while saying things like these?

Your post ASSUMES that the theocrats
prevail in Arizona, or at least in its GOP. I deem that un-likely,
tho I 'd not bet my life on being correct on that point.
Do u deem Arizona 's 2 Senators to be theocrats??
I dont believe that thay make much noise toward theocracy.
Remember, Tom, a US Senator need only find sufficient support
in the electorate of his individual State, not nationwide.

Barry Goldwater wrote:

Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them.

Barry Goldwater also wrote:

You don't need to be 'straight' to fight and die for your country. You just need to shoot straight."

Thomas wrote:

Barry Goldwater sure doesn't sound like a Republican who could win a primary today.
So if liberalism and theocracy are both unacceptable to you,
just who is left for you to vote for?

I read The Conscience of a Conservative about 5O or 55 years ago.
I dont remember whether those quotes were in there or not.
I shud read it again. It was lost in a fire.

I do the best I can to promote the success of libertarianism
and Individualism within the GOP and then vote for the least offensive candidate.

Thanks for the 2 Goldwater quotes; I loved them.
Where did u find them ?

David

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

You mean, when a man says "it is over" and then dies, the word "it" in his sentence
might be referring to his own life? You're such a contrarian!

I inferred that "it" referred to his struggle, or discomfort.

I don t believe that the concept is that he DIED,
but rather that he molted off his human body
and departed hence, until he returned,
which is something that has happened a lot of times.
My surgeon told me in 2005, that it happened to me 2ice, in front of him,
during surgery. I only remember awakening a few hours later in the I.C.U.
Other people, in similar circumstances, have remembered their
experiences much better than I did. Indeed, some of their relatives
were disinherited when the excarnated fellow saw and heard them
out in the hospital's waiting room, bad-mouthing him inside in surgery.
Thay did not see his living consciousness watching them.
He re-inhabited his human body, arose and betook himself
to his estate lawyers and put a codicil on his will.

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@Setanta,

Perhaps, however, it does suggest that when Jesus was on the cross he meant something other than he just died when he said "it is finished." In the Book of Hebrews of which no one really knows who wrote, it goes on in much detail about the old covenant which is the law and the new covenant. Paul's epistles do too, but as this is a political board, as bear has expressed his distaste so to speak on the subject and I really don't enjoy this here in any event, I'm going to let it go as unproven and leave it at that on that angle.

I will say that religious debates prove that it would just be impossible to base laws on the bible as people either don't believe, or believe differently or believe in another religion all together and if we choose the bible we will be putting forth one religion above others which is unconstitutional.

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