COUP IN KYIV?

One thing that is amazing about the Wests reaction here is that Khrushchev did not ask anyone what they wanted, he decided that he wanted to give Ukraine the gift of Crimea and so he signed a piece of paper and he did it. If the people, after the Soviet Union failed, decide that they want to go back to Russia where they think they belong then by what rights do we tell them no? We claim the moral high ground in our argument with Putin, but we dont occupy it.

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@revelette2,

It conjures an imagine of coquettes reveling, whether intentionally or not.

Setanta does too for those with some knowledge of Bardic mysteries.

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@hawkeye10,

Quote:

what we should be doing is looking for ways to work with them.

Those who have experienced that have had their private conversations intercepted clandestinely.

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

According to Western propaganda these are clandestine Russian agents. No proof is offered natch.

Not here. For instance, the "people's mayor" Vyacheslav Ponomaryov as well as many of his followers have never been named such by journalist who are there. They are "pro-Russian separatists", opposed to the Ukrainian government.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Quote:

Money can't buy happiness, but it just might be able to buy peace in eastern Ukraine. That's the idea in Dnepropetrovsk, where the administration of a new oligarch governor is offering a $10,000 bounty for the capture of every "green man", the term for the Russian agents Kiev claims are fomenting unrest in the east. Nearly a dozen suspects have already been turned in.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/25/ukraine-city-10000-dollar-county-russian-agent

Quote:

The Ukraine government says the occupations that began on Sunday are part of a Russian-led plan to dismember the country. Kerry said he feared Moscow might repeat its Crimean operation.

"It is clear that Russian special forces and agents have been the catalyst behind the chaos of the last 24 hours," he said in Washington, and this "could potentially be a contrived pretext for military intervention just as we saw in Crimea."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/08/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSBREA370RU20140408

It is not clear to me, as not a single captured russian agent has been presented, but as we saw pre Iraq invasion the American media (and what ever remains of the journalism corps) reports as "fact" what ever it wants to believe is true. Washington wants to believe Kiev, and the US media wants to believe Washington, so we get convenient assertions reported as fact.

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@hawkeye10,

Your quote from the Guardian reports about what is done by the Ukrainian administration in Dnepropetrovsk.

Your quote from reuters cites Kerry.

Both is correct journalism, I think. When you look at other reports from both sources, you can read about Ponomaryov that "he and his aides frequently label foes and critics as fascists or neo-Nazis. The town’s separatist leader clearly enjoys the limelight, holding daily press conferences." And "his diehard followers, who tend to be less than worldly, unemployed, ill-educated and in some cases had backgrounds as petty criminals."
(Above from the Daily Beast, using reuters; dw and Guardian had similar reports today)

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@Walter Hinteler,

Quote:

And "his diehard followers, who tend to be less than worldly, unemployed, ill-educated and in some cases had backgrounds as petty criminals."

What else Walt? Decent, hard-working, respectable people don't care for that sort of thing although they will provide token support if there's money in it.

I have followed the story from the very beginning. I think I was the first to mention it on A2K.

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Certainly the kidnapping of the OSCE-observers isn't a topic because no-one from the US is involved.
But this gangsterism by the separatists in Sloviansk seems to become more and more dramatic.

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If it wasn't a severe situation already ...

Last night/this morning, it was in the news that according to the Ukrainian defense ministry Russian planes had violated the Ukrainian airspace, with harsh reactions from Washington.
Now Ukraine's acting Defence Minister Mikhail Koval has said that neither Russian troops, nor aircraft crossed into Ukraine during a military exercise. Russian troops came within 2 or 3 kilometres of the Ukrainian border, he said. According to what said to reporters in Kiev today, the peak of the Russian troops' activity near the the Ukrainian border was on April 24th and 25th.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Quote:

Observers held in Ukraine branded 'NATO spies'
[...]The pro-Russian rebels had accused them of being "NATO spies" and vowed to continue holding them. In a statement on Saturday, Denis Pushilin, the head of the insurgents' self-declared Donetsk Republic, confirmed that they had been detained.

"[The] NATO spies...will be exchanged for our own prisoners. I don't see any other way they will be freed," Pushilin said.

The self-proclaimed Mayor of Slovyansk, VyacheslavObservers held in Ukraine branded 'NATO spies' also told Russian television news crews that the OSCE members were considered "intelligence officers of NATO country members."

"Military personnel from Denmark, Germany, Poland, the Czech Republic, Bulgaria I think and - from somewhere else, I can't immediately recall - have been detained," he said in broadcasts seen in Moscow.[...]

This Ponomaryov person had made various statements during the last 24 hours about the situation. The observers are now, in the moment I post this, still "prisoners of war".

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@Walter Hinteler,

According to latest polls, more than 50% of Germans have fears of a new (world/European) war.

If wrong decisions are made now, decades of working for peace and security in Europe are going down the stream.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

You really seem to have
a) no idea about NATO,
b) history,
c) international poltics
d) Europe

I notice your failure to point out any fact that I am supposedly wrong about.

Walter Hinteler wrote:

All what you do here is producing cheap, but dangerous bubbles.

What I've produced is a reliable method to prevent Putin from conquering eastern and southern Ukraine.

I haven't seen you come up with any ideas on how to prevent such an invasion.

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@oralloy,

Quote:

I haven't seen you come up with any ideas on how to prevent such an invasion.

where did you establish that their is an evasion requiring prevention? Putin is not an idiot, he is not going to invade Ukraine and take up the hassle of trying to administrate it. he will however make sure that the rag tag ukrainian military does not control the region.

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@Walter Hinteler,

This is terrible, I haven't kept up with the news, do you happen to know what is being done about it?

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@revelette2,

The Swedish officer has just be set free ... due to health reasons.

What's being done about it - diplomatic talks.

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@Walter Hinteler,

These officers are there on a different OSCE-mission (according to the Vienna Document). The officers thus are kind of "diplomats in uniform". Therefor, talks are done by the Foreign Ministries/diplomats and not Defense Ministries.
This mission started already in March, Germany is actually now heading it.

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@revelette2,

One of 8 Observers Is Freed by Pro-Russian Forces in Eastern Ukraine

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@Walter Hinteler,

Diplomatic talks between who (or should I say whom? never knew). what I mean is, isn't the very reason they were kidnapped is because the separatists think they are NATO simply because people in the mission are Europeans? Who would they open for talks with?

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@revelette2,

This so-called mayor didn't connect them to NATO at all but to the EU at first.

They talked with OSCE officials today for hours.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Quote:

Ukraine's Prime Minister Yatsenyuk accuses Moscow of instigating "World War III." Russian President Putin calls him a fascist. A propaganda war is being waged for public opinion in the Ukraine crisis.

Full report: Separating fact from fiction in Ukraine

1 Reply

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