31
   

COUP IN KYIV?

 
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 01:55 pm
@izzythepush,
Izzy: The only nation that has had cause to invoke the NATO charter after being attacked, is America. Right after 9/11, when NATO allies began flying fighters over New York.
-----------

The USA wasn't attacked by any countries. Those countries that followed the USA into Iraq and Afghanistan committed war crimes along with the pros at committing war crimes, none other than the us of a.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 01:56 pm
@panzade,
panzade wrote:
... reports surfaced that Russian troops had traveled farther north into Ukraine from Crimea.
I've seen several live reports in the last few minutes - at least those reporters had no information about such (one actually reporting from the border).

But I can imagine that there might be different views ... and that's one of the reasons, why the OSCE-observers will be monitoring there.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 01:57 pm
@Setanta,
Set: the Untied Staes.

Now there's a Freudian slip. Untied from reality.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 02:09 pm
@Setanta,
Talk about selective reading. I never said that NATO exists to protect the United States.

This is what I said.

Quote:
The only nation that has had cause to invoke the NATO charter after being attacked, is America. Right after 9/11, when NATO allies began flying fighters over New York.


It is a fact, no other NATO nation has had cause to invoke the NATO charter.

Here's another fact. Oralboy insulted all of Western Europe, and that elicited no response from you. When I posted the above, dispassionate, non-pejorative, non-insulting, post you had a hissy fit.

Then in a face saving exercise you reposted one of Lordy's comments about Oralboy, but you weren't fooling anyone.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 02:14 pm
@izzythepush,


SATURDAY, MAR 8, 2014 09:00 AM CST
35 countries where the U.S. has supported fascists, drug lords and terrorists
As the situation in Ukraine continues to fester, a handy history guide -- from A (Argentina) to Z (Zaire)
NICOLAS J.S. DAVIES, ALTERNET

The U.S. is backing Ukraine’s extreme right-wing Svoboda party and violent neo-Nazis whose armed uprising paved the way for a Western-backed coup. Events in the Ukraine are giving us another glimpse through the looking-glass of U.S. propaganda wars against fascism, drugs and terrorism. The ugly reality behind the mirror is that the U.S. government has a long and unbroken record of working with fascists, dictators, druglords and state sponsors of terrorism in every region of the world in its elusive but relentless quest for unchallenged global power.
Behind a firewall of impunity and protection from the State Department and the CIA, U.S. clients and puppets have engaged in the worst crimes known to man, from murder and torture to coups and genocide. The trail of blood from this carnage and chaos leads directly back to the steps of the U.S. Capitol and the White House. As historian Gabriel Kolko observed in 1988, “The notion of an honest puppet is a contradiction Washington has failed to resolve anywhere in the world since 1945.” What follows is a brief A to Z guide to the history of that failure.

Read the A to Z guide at,

http://www.salon.com/2014/03/08/35_countries_the_u_s_has_backed_international_crime_partner/


0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 02:15 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
and that's one of the reasons, why the OSCE-observers will be monitoring there.

I guess that's a good thing.
At least they can chain themselves to a lamp-post in protest over a Russian incursion.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 02:26 pm
@izzythepush,
Izzy: I never said that NATO exists to protect the United States.

Well let me say it then. NATO exists to protect the business interests of the USA. The notion that the USA needs protection from outside dangers is the biggest canard of all times.

The USA would sell out any country, at any time, if they thought that country was doing harm to their financial interests.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 02:32 pm
@panzade,
panzade wrote:
At least they can chain themselves to a lamp-post in protest over a Russian incursion.
Well, they are unarmed, similar to UN-observers. But until now, all the missions of the OSCE were quite successful - especially, since all agreed on this.
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 02:32 pm
@oralloy,
Oralboy: Not that I want the US to be treated like we are special or anything. But it might be nice to be treated like we're fellow good guys, friends, and in Europe because we're trying to help.
-------------

But the central issue is that the USA is not the good guys. The USA has never been the good guys, not a once. History shows that the USA has only been a rapaciously greedy monster.
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 03:10 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
OK, I hope it goes smoothly.
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 03:11 pm
@panzade,
IMO, I can't remember a conflict that McCain didn't think we needed to send military force to solve.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 03:20 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
A glimmer of hope Walter
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 03:47 pm
@panzade,
Obviously the first instance of consensus between Russia and the "West" concerning the Ukraine.

Seems, there is an option to expand the number of observers up to 500. The mission will be based in Kyiv and be deployed to nine areas of the country - including the largely Russian-speaking city of Donetsk.

0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 04:32 pm
I saw Ben Judah being interviewed on C4 News, his assessment makes pretty sober reading.

Quote:
The West is blinking in disbelief – Vladimir Putin just invaded Ukraine. German diplomats, French Eurocrats and American pundits are all stunned. Why has Russia chosen to gamble its trillion-dollar ties with the West?

Western leaders are stunned because they haven’t realized Russia’s owners no longer respect Europeans the way they once did after the Cold War. Russia thinks the West is no longer a crusading alliance. Russia thinks the West is now all about the money.

Putin’s henchmen know this personally. Russia’s rulers have been buying up Europe for years. They have mansions and luxury flats from London’s West End to France’s Cote d’Azure. Their children are safe at British boarding and Swiss finishing schools. And their money is squirrelled away in Austrian banks and British tax havens.

Putin’s inner circle no longer fear the European establishment. They once imagined them all in MI6. Now they know better. They have seen firsthand how obsequious Western aristocrats and corporate tycoons suddenly turn when their billions come into play. They now view them as hypocrites—the same European elites who help them hide their fortunes.

Once Russia’s powerful listened when European embassies issued statements denouncing the baroque corruption of Russian state companies. But no more. Because they know full well it is European bankers, businessmen and lawyers who do the dirty work for them placing the proceeds of corruption in hideouts from the Dutch Antilles to the British Virgin Islands.

We are not talking big money. But very big money. None other than Putin’s Central Bank has estimated that two thirds of the $56 billion exiting Russia in 2012 might be traceable to illegal activities. Crimes like kickbacks, drug money or tax fraud. This is the money that posh English bankers are rolling out the red carpet for in London.

Behind European corruption, Russia sees American weakness. The Kremlin does not believe European countries – with the exception of Germany – are truly independent of the United States. They see them as client states that Washington could force now, as it once did in the Cold War, not to do such business with the Kremlin.

When Russia sees Spain, Italy, Greece and Portugal outbidding each other to be Russia’s best business partner inside the EU (in return for no mention of human rights), they see America’s control over Europe slowly dissolving.

Back in Moscow, Russia hears American weakness out of Embassy Moscow. Once upon a time the Kremlin feared a foreign adventure might trigger Cold War economic sanctions where it hurts: export bans on key parts for its oil industry, even being cut out of its access to the Western banking sector. No more.

Russia sees an America distracted: Putin’s Ukrainian gambit was a shock to the U.S. foreign policy establishment. They prefer talking about China, or participating in Israeli-Palestinian peace talks. Russia sees an America vulnerable: in Afghanistan, in Syria and on Iran—a United States that desperately needs Russian support to continue shipping its supplies, host any peace conference or enforce its sanctions.

Moscow is not nervous. Russia’s elites have exposed themselves in a gigantic manner – everything they hold dear is now locked up in European properties and bank accounts. Theoretically, this makes them vulnerable. The EU could, with a sudden rush of money-laundering investigations and visa bans, cut them off from their wealth. But, time and time again, they have watched European governments balk at passing anything remotely similar to the U.S. Magnitsky Act, which bars a handful of criminal-officials from entering the United States.

All this has made Putin confident, very confident – confident that European elites are more concerned about making money than standing up to him. The evidence is there. After Russia’s strike force reached the outskirts of Tbilisi, the Georgian capital, in 2008, there were statements and bluster, but not a squeak about Russia’s billions. After Russia’s opposition were thrown into show trials, there were concerned letters from the European Union, but again silence about Russia’s billions.

The Kremlin thinks it knows Europe’s dirty secret now. The Kremlin thinks it has the European establishment down to a tee. The grim men who run Putin’s Russia see them like latter-day Soviet politicians. Back in the 1980s, the USSR talked about international Marxism but no longer believed it. Brussels today, Russia believes, talks about human rights but no longer believes in it. Europe is really run by an elite with the morality of the hedge fund: Make money at all costs and move it offshore.


http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/03/russia-vladimir-putin-the-west-104134.html#.Uyy8i99F2Uw
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 04:40 pm
@izzythepush,
Found within, the gigantic lie that has been propping up the USA for over a half century - Uncle Sam is benevolent.

Only benevolent to those who support the USA in their theft of the poor's wealth.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 06:10 pm
@izzythepush,
And there is a religious revival in Russia. Led by Mr Putin.

Money is mentioned up front here in most ads and plays a large role in game shows and on every front page.

Spengler predicted that the final struggle would be between money and blood.

The connection between Russia and Crimea is a blood tie.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 22 Mar, 2014 03:42 am
@Lordyaswas,
Lordyaswas wrote:
And as far as ICBM's are concerned, if you are serious in having a mindset to 'demand' an immediate strike, knowing the retaliatory consequences, I am not surprised that no-one takes your views very seriously.

I suppose there are merits to slow but implacable escalation. But sometimes if a fight is inevitable it is best to just get it over with.


Lordyaswas wrote:
The US can bluff and bluster all it likes, but if anyone convinces Ukraine or even a shrunken 'new' Ukraine to sign up to NATO, it will be the equivalent to Obama strolling up to Putin's door and sh*tting on the doorstep.
Lordyaswas wrote:
In Russia's mind, Ukraine in NATO and the EU mean missiles on their border, the enemy at the gates.
Just think how you would react if the tables were turned and, say, Cuba wanted to cement their friendship with Russia by putting missiles on their soil, a stone's throw away from your back yard?

Comparing this to the Cuban Missile Crisis severely understates the threat to Russia. The distance from Ukraine to Moscow is nothing like the distance from Cuba to Washington DC.

More like the distance from Cuba to Miami.

I do not propose bluffing. I propose that, if Russia annexes eastern and southern Ukraine, we bring the remainder of Ukraine into NATO for real.

Yes, Russia will not like it. That's the point of doing it. If they don't want us to do it, they should consider not annexing eastern and southern Ukraine.


Lordyaswas wrote:
We are not talking about farm subsidies or point scoring over who gets the important decisions about what expenses they can fiddle....we are talking about the distinct possibility of big, hairy men smelling of vodka and borscht, rumbling right across Ukraine and not stopping until they drive into and demolish Walter's outdoor privy.
Lordyaswas wrote:
The US Military, in this particular scenario, would be a reasonable nuisance to Putin, but would suffer a very quick humiliation if they got into this, and there's no way that the White House has the stomach for that at the moment.
This isn't an Iraq.

I disagree. I think our military could eradicate Russia's military with ease. And if Russia invades any NATO country, we are very much going to jump into that fight.

Also, if Russia did somehow manage to successfully invade all the way to Germany (or even merely invaded the entirety of Ukraine), they would then be faced with management of a large hostile population. And the West would almost certainly support an insurgency. The occupation would quickly become a disaster for the Russians.


Lordyaswas wrote:
In your first paragraph, the word 'they' refers to the French, I assume?

We get a lot of grief from Germany as well.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 22 Mar, 2014 03:42 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
oralloy wrote:
Sometimes I think it would be beneficial to replace NATO with something that protected the UK and Eastern Europe, but didn't bother to protect anything in between.

To quote Lord Ismay: NATO's founding purpose back in 1949 was "to keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down".

I do not agree with the part about keeping Germany down. I'd rather we treat Germany as a friend and ally. But I also want Germany to treat us as a friend and ally.


Walter Hinteler wrote:
However, oralloy, why don't you want e.g. Poland as a country in Central Europe and bordering Russia to be protected?
Or the northern European countries Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania? (They not only border Russia but do have actually some understandable fears right now)

I consider them part of Eastern Europe, and very much wish to protect them.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Sat 22 Mar, 2014 04:22 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
I consider them part of Eastern Europe, ...
Some of you Americans have some very obscure geographical ideas.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Mar, 2014 07:59 am
The latest.

Quote:
Pro-Russian protesters have stormed a Ukrainian naval base in western Crimea.

Several hundred unarmed protesters attacked the base at Novofedorivka, which is now under almost complete control of Russian forces.

Meanwhile, Ukrainian troops surrounded by Russian forces have been ordered to battle stations at Belbek airbase.

Russian forces, including snipers and armoured personnel carriers, have advanced and an ultimatum to surrender has just expired.

The Belbek base commander told the few dozen troops still there to shoot in the air if they were attacked.

He said he had been waiting for days for orders from Kiev but told the BBC still none had been issued.

Ukraine's military chiefs deny this, saying each unit in Crimea has been issued with clear orders on what to do if attacked.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26698754
0 Replies
 
 

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