31
   

COUP IN KYIV?

 
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 05:48 am
@Lordyaswas,
Lordyaswas wrote:
Q1. Ungrateful. Are you sure that you used the correct word here? If so, why?

They always act like we are some sort of rogue cowboys who are more trouble than help. And there is always a sense that they will stab us in the back if given a chance.

Sometimes I think it would be beneficial to replace NATO with something that protected the UK and Eastern Europe, but didn't bother to protect anything in between.

Not that I want the US to be treated like we are special or anything. But it might be nice to be treated like we're fellow good guys, friends, and in Europe because we're trying to help.


Lordyaswas wrote:
Q2. Given that you have more than one brain cell and therefore understand that any joining by Ukraine of NATO right now will immediately lead to a thousand tanks being driven right up their chuff, is it just the fact that you are sitting in an armchair a few thousand miles away that makes you so brave?

My suggestion is that the offer of NATO membership be extended to the remnants of Ukraine, after Russia has annexed southern and eastern Ukraine (should Russia do that). I am not suggesting that it be offered before such an invasion occurred.

If Russia were to drive tanks into western Ukraine, they would not find the place an easy conquest, as it would contain a large population that would be hostile to them. I am not so sure that Russia would really want to do that. Western support for an insurgency there could quickly turn the invasion into a disaster for them.

Also, my suggestion is that Russia be deterred from annexing southern and eastern Ukraine by us making a credible threat that we will make this offer of NATO membership if they do.

I believe that providing Russia with a credible threat that we will do something they strongly dislike, should they invade further parts of Ukraine, will make such an invasion less likely.

In any case, there is no particular expectation of my personal security in this scenario. Were Russia to ever invade any NATO member, I would demand that my government immediately launch all of our ICBMs at Russia. I presume that the events following such a launch would likely be detrimental to my safety.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 06:31 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
Sometimes I think it would be beneficial to replace NATO with something that protected the UK and Eastern Europe, but didn't bother to protect anything in between.
To quote Lord Ismay: NATO's founding purpose back in 1949 was "to keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down".

The original 12 members of NATO in 1949 were the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, France, Denmark, Iceland, Italy, Norway, Portugal, Belgium, Netherlands, and Luxembourg.
Unfortunately for oralloy, quite a few countries in between the UK and the former communist countries in Eastern Europe.

However, oralloy, why don't you want e.g. Poland as a country in Central Europe and bordering Russia to be protected?
Or the northern European countries Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania? (They not only border Russia but do have actually some understandable fears right now)
Lordyaswas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 06:36 am
@oralloy,
In your first paragraph, the word 'they' refers to the French, I assume?

If so, I can usually see where someone would get that idea, as my view has long been that the hardline Frenchman has never forgiven the Anglo-Saxons for liberating them, but this situation is very different.

We are not talking about farm subsidies or point scoring over who gets the important decisions about what expenses they can fiddle....we are talking about the distinct possibility of big, hairy men smelling of vodka and borscht, rumbling right across Ukraine and not stopping until they drive into and demolish Walter's outdoor privy.

The US can bluff and bluster all it likes, but if anyone convinces Ukraine or even a shrunken 'new' Ukraine to sign up to NATO, it will be the equivalent to Obama strolling up to Putin's door and sh*tting on the doorstep.

The US Military, in this particular scenario, would be a reasonable nuisance to Putin, but would suffer a very quick humiliation if they got into this, and there's no way that the White House has the stomach for that at the moment.

This isn't an Iraq.

Britain helping out? Well, we've just cut our armed services so much that we could just about send a few military canteens with some Women's Institute volunteers if you like. They make very good cakes and tea that your boys could eat as they're dodging bullets. We have bugger all else to offer at this moment in time, nor have we the stomach for it after yesrs and years of seeing our young maimed for no good reason other than to set up a government in Afghsnistan that will crumble to the Taliban the second our last lads fly out of there.

And as far as ICBM's are concerned, if you are serious in having a mindset to 'demand' an immediate strike, knowing the retaliatory consequences, I am not surprised that no-one takes your views very seriously.

Europe needs to seriously give itself a slap and get onto producing energy of its own, no matter how, straight away. To be beholden to Russia in any way, shape or form from now on is lunacy, imo.

If the west feels so strongly about the Crimea situation, taking the hypocrisy element regarding Iraq out of the situation, it should stop Russians travelling wherever possible, freeze their money and not sell them a single thing.

First of all, we should all read up on the long and winding history of Crimea and ask ourselves the question how we would have acted if the situation was reversed?

In Russia's mind, Ukraine in NATO and the EU mean missiles on their border, the enemy at the gates.
Just think how you would react if the tables were turned and, say, Cuba wanted to cement their friendship with Russia by putting missiles on their soil, a stone's throw away from your back yard?
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 07:01 am
@Lordyaswas,
Quote:
Just think how you would react if the tables were turned and, say, Cuba wanted to cement their friendship with Russia by putting missiles on their soil, a stone's throw away from your back yard?

I think we already know the answer to that.
Lordyaswas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 07:05 am
@panzade,
Yes, it was a rheht.....rehtor......

A sort of question that even Oral might already know the answer.
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 08:27 am
I haven't read past the page I am on, so if this is a repeat, apologies.

Russia Completes Crimea Annexation

Quote:
MOSCOW) — President Vladimir Putin completed the annexation of Crimea on Friday, signing the peninsula into Russia at nearly the same time his Ukrainian counterpart sealed a deal pulling his country closer into Europe’s orbit.

Putin said he saw no need to further retaliate against U.S. sanctions, a newly conciliatory tone reflecting an apparent attempt to contain one of the worst crises in Russia’s relations with the West since the Cold War.

Putin hailed the incorporation of Crimea into Russia as a “remarkable event” before he signed the parliament bills into law in the Kremlin on Friday. He ordered fireworks in Moscow and Crimea.

At nearly the same time, in a ceremony in Brussels, Ukraine’s new prime minister pulled his nation closer to Europe by signing a political association agreement with the European Union — the same deal that touched off the political crisis that drove President Viktor Yanukovych from office and sent him fleeing to Russia.

0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 09:24 am
@Setanta,
I responded to what was already said. If you don't want me to respond to anti-European sentiment maybe you should take them to task.

You're the one who needs to grow up if merely stating the facts about the NATO alliance elicits such a hysterical response.

Just what is it you love about Oralboy?
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 09:41 am
Alexander Lebedev was being interviewed on the BBC. He said the one sanction that would work would be stopping Russian businesses from borrowing money. Once their reserves of foreign currency are gone they'll be stuck, especially as the rouble is having such problems. Unfortunately it's not on the BBC website yet, but here's an interview he gave to the Sydney Morning Herald that makes interesting reading.

Quote:
Alexander Lebedev is concerned.

"Russian businessmen are very scared," the 54-year-old former billionaire, who served in the Soviet embassy in London during the Cold War and owns Russia's National Reserve Corp., said by phone. "There are risks to the Russian economy. There could be margin calls, reserves might be drawn down, exchange rates may fall and prices will rise. This worries me."

Billionaires in Russia and Ukraine risk further losses as market volatility and the threat of Iran-style economic sanctions intensify following Russia's incursion into Crimea. Since February 28, the day unidentified soldiers took control of Simferopol Airport in southern Ukraine, Russia's 19 richest people have lost $US18.3 billion ($20.3 billion), according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index, a daily ranking of the world's 300 richest wealthiest people.

"The instability caused by the situation in Crimea could be a problem for the oligarchs," Yulia Bushueva, who helps manage $US500 million at Arbat Capital in Moscow, said in a telephone interview. "If a billionaire pledged their stakes in publicly traded companies as collateral for a line of credit, they could face margin calls and have to re-negotiate with banks."

The US and the European Union are threatening sanctions against Russia if it doesn't back down from annexing the Black Sea province, which is holding a referendum in two days to join Ukraine's former Soviet-era master.

"All sides now understand each other's positioning and understand the constraints each other face,"Michael O'Sullivan, chief investment officer of Credit Suisse Private Banking, said in a telephone interview. "It's now clear as well that an escalation would have negative consequences on pretty much all the players."
The European Union last week froze the assets of 18 Ukrainians, including "hundreds of millions of euros" in the Netherlands controlled by former President Viktor Yanukovych and his son, Oleksandr, Dutch Finance Minister Jeroen Dijsselbloem said March 6 on the television show Pauw & Witteman.

Dmitry Firtash, a 48-year-old Ukrainian billionaire who made his fortune importing Russian natural gas, was arrested in Vienna Wednesday by an organised-crime unit of the Austrian police on a warrant issued by the US Federal Bureau of Investigation, according to a statement by the country's Interior Ministry.

Outside Russia

He is alleged to have paid bribes and formed a criminal organisation, according to the warrant, issued after an FBI investigation that began in 2006, the ministry said.

One Russian billionaire, who asked not to be identified because of the sensitivity of the situation, said he was concerned about the effect potential sanctions might have on business. He said he'd consider buying assets outside of Russia if sanctions were imposed.

Dmitry Peskov, a Kremlin spokesman, said in a March 11 telephone interview that "there were no consultations" with Russian businessmen and that they "have not expressed any concern" over the situation.

According to a March 13 report in the Wall Street Journal, a spokesman for President Vladimir Putin acknowledged that business leaders in Russia have been in "constant contact," and that Putin had not met with any of them. The report said a recent meeting between the country's industrialists and high-ranking government officials turned "tense" when the subject of sanctions came up.

Broken Sanctions

Doing business under sanctions might not be all bad for Russian entrepreneurs, according to South African billionaire Natie Kirsh.

"There are opportunities that come out of sanctions," the 82-year-old, who started building his $5.9 billion retail and real estate empire during apartheid, said by phone from Johannesburg. "Sanctions can be broken. It always depends on the extent of the sanctions and how they take."

F.W. de Klerk, South Africa's last president during the apartheid era, said the country and businessmen were able to work around the sanctions levied by the US beginning in 1986.

"The sanctions delayed change in South Africa because it made us look for ways to evade them," de Klerk, 77, said in a telephone interview from Cape Town. "We worked with the business community to find ways to keep companies going. In the end, not many factories shut down, they just changed ownership."

Ukraine's Richest

Kirsh said the Cold War could reemerge out of Russia's incursion in Ukraine, and energy suppliers outside of Russia will benefit if sanctions are levied.

"It's a different story with Putin," Kirsh said. "South Africa doesn't supply 30 per cent of Europe's oil and gas. There will be some people outside of Russia that will see a huge benefit. Some people who supply oil and gas for Russia will not believe how busy they will be."

Rinat Akhmetov, Ukraine's richest person, has lost more than $US550 million since February 28. The 47-year-old billionaire, who owns Donetsk, Ukraine-based conglomerate System Capital Management Group, expanded his business with help from Yanukovych. Akhmetov's DTEK Holdings BV was the only bidder in two of five auctions of state-owned energy assets, which were organised by the former president's government.

'Maintain Relations'

The billionaire no longer supports his longtime ally and has committed to rebuilding the government of Ukraine, according to a March 10 report in London's Telegraph newspaper. Elena Dovzhenko, a spokeswoman for Ahkmetov, said the billionaire wasn't immediately available to comment.

"He understands that the previous state of things is over," Ihor Burakovsky, head of the Board of the Institute for Economic Research and Policy Consulting in Kiev, said by phone. "He will try to maintain relations with all the significant players in the country."

Ahkmetov on March 9 met with Vitali Klitschko, leader of Ukraine's UDAR party and a potential candidate for Ukraine's presidency, to discuss the situation, according to a statement from UDAR.

"The use of force and lawless actions from outside are unacceptable," the billionaire said in a separate statement on March 2. "I state with all due responsibility that SCM Group, which today employs 300,000 people and represents Ukraine from west to east and from north to south, will do everything possible to maintain the integrity of our country."

State Assets

The 19 Russian billionaires on the Bloomberg ranking have businesses, homes and bank accounts scattered around the globe valued at more than $208 billion. Some of that wealth was accumulated through government ties that enabled them to acquire former state assets during privatisation in the 1990s, transactions Putin called "unfair" in 2012. They have since moved control of the assets out of Russia and into the West.

Alisher Usmanov, the country's richest person, controls his most valuable asset, Metalloinvest Holding Co., Russia's largest iron ore producer, through three subsidiaries, one of which is located in Cyprus, an EU member nation. The 60-year-old also owns a Victorian mansion in London that he bought in 2008 for $70 million, according to a May 18, 2008, Sunday Times newspaper report.

He's lost $1.5 billion since the crisis began, according to the Bloomberg ranking.

"We are concerned with the possible sanctions against Russia but don't see any dramatic repercussions for our business," Ivan Streshinsky, CEO at USM Advisors LLC, which manages Usmanov's assets, including stakes in Megafon OAO and Mail.Ru Group Ltd., said in an interview at Bloomberg's offices in Moscow.

Greater Compliance

"Mail.Ru and Megafon revenue is coming from Russia and people won't stop making calls and using the Internet," he said. "Metalloinvest may face closure in European and American markets, but it can re-direct sales to China and other markets."

Transferring ownership abroad may prove problematic if sanctions are imposed. The US Securities and Exchange Commission and other regulatory authorities may tell US-based banks to exhibit greater compliance with the existing Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, Standard Bank (STAN) Group Ltd. said in a March 11 report.

The report also said the US might investigate Russia's compliance with the Financial Actions Task Force on Money Laundering and Terrorism Financing in an effort to push the country onto a black list, a move that would prevent global banks from dealing with Russian lenders.

'Nuclear Blow'

The third escalation would be actual asset freezes, which perhaps would be "the nuclear blow, as it would risk countermeasures from the Russian authorities," according to the Standard Bank report.

"Currently, there is no clear link between events taking place in Ukraine and any steps that might be available to freeze assets of wealthy Russian citizens overseas," Marta Khomyak, a partner of London-based PCB Litigation, said in a telephone interview. "However, given the pace of events and the underlying political tensions, I would not rule out attempts being made to attack various Russian interests overseas."

Sanctions related to the Crimea crisis so far have been levied on individuals the EU said were responsible for the "misappropriation of state funds" and "human rights violations," according to the regulation passed by the Council of the European Union on March 5. President Obama echoed the language in a briefing with journalists at the White House the next day.

Lisin's Steel

"Russians who are making bank transactions and opening new accounts will now be confronted with increased suspicion," Valery Tutykhin, an attorney with John Tiner & Partners, a Geneva-based law firm that specializes in wealth management, said in an e-mail.

The crisis also threatens to derail the relationship between the West and the Russian businesses the billionaires control. Among the companies potentially affected is OAO Novolipetsk Steel (NLMK), the country's most-valuable steelmaker, which is controlled by Vladimir Lisin, Russia's 13th-richest person. The company derived 21 per cent of its $US12.1 billion in 2012 revenue from Europe, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. Sergey Babichenko, a spokesman for NLMK, declined to comment.

"In the event of a European and US ban on exports of the metal, NLMK's position would be weakest among Russian steelmakers, because it ships steel slabs to its own mills in Europe," Kirill Chuyko, head of equity research at BCS Financial Group said. "We see such actions as unlikely for the time being."

Amicable End

With its stock market falling and interest rates rising, Russia has suffered most of the financial pain the crisis has inflicted.

"To the extent that they can, the businessmen in Moscow will be making their sentiments and voices heard," said Credit Suisse (CSGN)'s O'Sullivan. "I'm not sure the Kremlin will listen to them."

Billionaire Naguib Sawiris, Egypt's second-richest person, who's done business with North Korea, Russia and Pakistan through his telecommunications companies, said he's concerned about potential sanctions.

"Putin has proven that toward the end of any crisis, he always goes back to reason and finds compromises," Sawiris, 59, said in a March 14 e-mail. "Therefore, I bet this crisis will end amicably."


http://www.smh.com.au/business/world-business/very-scared-russian-billionaires-watch-their-fortunes-fall-20140317-34w9z.html








hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 10:37 am
@izzythepush,
The West cant afford to drive Russias economy into the ditch because they are already having a bitch of a time keeping the EU out of it.....welcome to the intigrated global economy.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 10:40 am
@hawkeye10,
Europe does approx. 10x as much trade with Russia as America.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 10:56 am
@izzythepush,
It is not a "fact," as you said, that the NATO alliance exists to protect the United States. It's hilarious to see you talk about hysteria, because that's where you default whenever you are criticized. Nothing i've posted here even remotely suggests that i am "siding" with Oralloy. So, grow up, and calm down.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 12:09 pm
Interesting report:

Ukraine crisis: Bitter embers of resistance still burn on one of the few surviving Ukrainian bases in Crimea
Quote:

[...]
“These same people used to cheer us as their military on parades not so long ago, now they call us traitors. What’s happening is tearing families apart. I have two sisters, and also their husbands, in the Russian Navy, they know what is going on here, you can imagine just how worried they are, it is a terrible, terrible situation”, Major Korgic said, stopping for moment and staring at the ground.

“I don’t know what I am going to do if I survive this. My father is Ukrainian, my mother is Russian. I was born here in Crimea, my wife was born here. What are we going to do in mainland Ukraine? But will we be accepted if we stay? How will they treat us? I have lost Russian friends who contacted me after the referendum to ‘congratulate’ on us becoming a part of Russia. They couldn’t understand why I said ‘no, I remain a Ukrainian.’”

Major Korgic had served as an observer in Iraq, Sudan and Sierra Leone. “Please don’t say I was with Western missions, it was international missions. I have my own views about what has been done by Western missions in Iraq, in places like Libya,” he wanted to stress. “Then, on the other side you have Russia. They now see enemies everywhere, it is them against the world, paranoid. We are the ones in the middle, paying the price."
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 12:33 pm
If Western Europe feels that Russia's goals do not coincide with their goals , then maybe the EU should have existed since the early 20th century? Ooops. Two world wars made that impossible. Well, that's what Europe gets for competing in two world wars in the 20th century. They should have learned how to cooperate a century earlier, in my opinion. Whatever makes the Russians cohesive might be what Western Europe is lacking (i.e., same language, same identity even though Russia has had different ethnicities). The attempt at making Western Europe all just EU Europeans might just be playing "catch-up," against countries that had more cohesion for a much longer time? And, let's not forget that before the EU, how comfortable each European country was in having a homogeneous population (or labelled an "outsider," if one wasn't descended from the original tribes that settled in a country). Europe might be paying the price, in international politics, for their comfortable ethnocentrism for the past millenium.






Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 01:01 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
If Western Europe feels that Russia's goals do not coincide with their goals , then maybe the EU should have existed since the early 20th century? Ooops. Two world wars made that impossible. Well, that's what Europe gets for competing in two world wars in the 20th century. They should have learned how to cooperate a century earlier, in my opinion.
It's often said that with Charlemagne the European Union started.
But it actually started ... as the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) and the European Economic Community (EEC), formed by the Inner Six countries in 1951 and 1958, respectively.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 01:02 pm
@Foofie,
You do know, Foofie, that Russia is with quite a large part within Europe? That Russia is a member country of the European Council, the OESC ...????
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 01:04 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Coming back to the thread.

Russia agreed on the deployment of 100 OSCE observers in Ukraine.
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 01:15 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I can't remember, did Russia agree to let observers in the last time they were turned away at gun point?
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 01:26 pm
@revelette2,
(No.) Russia said nothing about it, I think. But there have been meetings today (until this European evening), and Russia agreed a couple of minutes ago.
(They'll stay there for six months)
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 01:34 pm
@Walter Hinteler,

Quote:
OSCE to send monitoring mission to Ukraine

March 21, 2014 09:02 PM (Last updated: March 21, 2014 09:08 PM)
Agence France Presse

VIENNA: OSCE member states agreed Friday to send a 100-strong monitoring mission to Ukraine, but not to Crimea, after Russia finally dropped objections, a spokeswoman said.

The Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe will "deploy a special monitoring mission of international observers to Ukraine", a resolution passed by the OSCE's 57 member states said.

The mission will initially be of 100 observers and "as necessary and according to the situation ... may expand by a total of up to 400 additional members", it said.

The aim is "to contribute throughout the country and in co-operation with ... relevant actors in the international community (such as the United Nations and the Council of Europe), to reduce tensions and fostering peace, stability and security".

Russia had been blocking at OSCE headquarters in Vienna for the past week the sending of such a mission.

A spokesman for the OSCE said that the mission would be deployed within 24 hours and has a six-month mandate which can be renewed if requested by Ukraine.



Source: The Daily Star Lebanon News (the only source in English I could find)http://www.dailystar.com.lb)
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2014 01:43 pm
A little sidebar:
Speaking in Kiev, Sen. John McCain called Saturday for the United States to provide long-term military assistance to Ukraine, saying it is "the right and decent thing to do," as reports surfaced that Russian troops had traveled farther north into Ukraine from Crimea.

Any comments?
 

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