31
   

COUP IN KYIV?

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2014 02:37 am
@Lordyaswas,
Quote:
Yet talk is about all he can do at this moment in time.


How about should do....

About Crimea nothing, it should belong to Russia and there is no way to keep Russia from having it so fighting over it would be pointless.

So far as other regions currently considered Ukraine lets see if Russia has designs on them, I doubt it. Russia has to have Crimea back for its navy, the russians in the rest of Ukraine can be accommodated with immigration.

I was reading that we owe it to Kiev to join them in their fight because they gave up their soviet nukes and we promised to support the geographic integrity of Ukraine. My response is that we brake promises all the time, and that this one should be broken.

Unlike Obama the EU leaders seem to have figured out that fitting Russia for the Rouge state uniform is a pointless exercise because the emerging boss China is not going to go along with that plan. The last thing we should want to be doing at this point is further cementing the new China-Russia friendship. If Russia were to decide to help China would be the preeminent global military power in 20 years, I dont think we a ready to be militarily irrelevant that quickly.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2014 02:53 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
A difficulty with effective sanctions lies in Western Europe, where many nations now depend on cheap Russian natural gas to fuel their economies. Germany leads the group, with around 40 percent of its natural gas coming from Russia..
'
'
'

Secure at home, Putin also fears little backlash from abroad. He believes the United States and Europe will publicly condemn Russia but implement few economic sanctions because Europe remains dependent on Russian natural gas.

"The biggest blow would be the largest companies in Germany not doing business" with Russia, Hill said. "That is what Putin banks on: Russia is too big and important.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/03/us-ukraine-crisis-intervention-analysis-idUSBREA221NZ20140303

Germany getting rid of Nuclear Energy handcuffs their ability to deal with Russian aggression, which was completely predictable, which was commented on at the time, but the Germans did not care.

OOPS!

So Merkel mans the phones, trying to figure out a way through this mess that does not sink Germany, the last economically functioning state in the EU.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2014 03:29 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Yet talk is about all he can do at this moment in time.


How about should do....

About Crimea nothing, it should belong to Russia and there is no way to keep Russia from having it so fighting over it would be pointless.


So your answer is to do pretty much the same as Obama.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2014 03:33 am
Russia has moved its focus to international relations, claiming legitimacy for their actions and beginning to row back. A shot fired by either side, not necessarily authorised by either side could still tip everything over.

Quote:
Ousted Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych asked Russia to send troops across the border to protect civilians, Moscow's UN envoy has claimed.

Vitaly Churkin told a Security Council meeting Mr Yanukovych wrote to Russian President Vladimir Putin on Saturday.

Thousands of Russian troops have been pouring into Ukraine's Crimea region.

Russian forces have also been holding military exercises near Ukraine's borders, but now Mr Putin has ordered them back to base, the Kremlin says.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26427848
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2014 03:33 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
So your answer is to do pretty much the same as Obama.

Obama has been issuing warnings and threats, I would do nothing.

See the difference?
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2014 03:34 am
@hawkeye10,
So you'd give Russia free reign, that's really standing up for American values.
Lordyaswas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2014 03:34 am
@izzythepush,
Exactly.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2014 03:38 am
Guardian's front page, Europe and America are dividing over self interest.

Quote:
Obama said the US state department was reviewing its entire portfolio of trade and co-operation with Moscow, including preparing a raft of possible measures targeting senior government and military officials implicated in the invasion of the peninsula. Obama said the condemnation from other countries aimed at Russia "indicates the degree to which Russia's on the wrong side of history on this".

The president is expected to use his executive authority to bypass Congress to quickly target senior Russian officials. But Washington is clearly aware it may struggle to rally support for punitive measures from Europe.

"The most important thing is for us – the United States – to make sure that we don't go off without the European community," the majority leader in the Senate, Democrat Harry Reid, told Politico. "Their interests are really paramount if we are going to do sanctions of some kind. We have to have them on board with us."

But at an emergency meeting in Brussels the foreign ministers of Germany, France, Italy and Spain resisted calls for trade sanctions, instead limiting discussion to freezing long-running talks with Russia on visa liberalisation that would have made it easier for Russians to visit Europe. Washington is also threatening to kick Russia out of the G8 group of leading economies, but Berlin opposes that.

Britain's attempts to ensure any EU action against Russia over Ukraine would exempt the City of London were embarrassingly revealed when a secret government document detailing the plan was photographed in Downing Street. The document said Britain should "not support, for now, trade sanctions … or close London's financial centre to Russians".

Like other EU countries, and especially Germany, which obtains almost 40% of its gas and oil from Russia, the UK is reluctant to adopt measures that could damage its still fragile economic recovery.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/03/ukraine-crisis-us-europe-putin-crimea
0 Replies
 
Lordyaswas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2014 03:38 am
@hawkeye10,
........" the last economically functioning state in the EU."

How so?

Last time I looked, UK was doing better than Germany. The UK was doing better than pretty much anyone else in the EU.

On what evidence do you base your sweeping statement?

hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2014 03:42 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

So you'd give Russia free reign, that's really standing up for American values.

free reign to take full control of what was Russian, should always have been Russian, and should be Russian now. Yes.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2014 03:44 am
@Lordyaswas,
Denmark seems to be doing OK.

Quote:
I’m talking about the economic model that has given Denmark lower unemployment than the U.S., less inequality, more social mobility, lower budget deficits, more opportunities for women, a bigger share of working people, and a happier population.

Today Nick Haekkerup, Denmark’s minister for trade and European affairs, spoke at the New School for Public Engagement about why, in his view, Denmark can thrive with a combination of high taxes, generous social services, and an efficient public sector.


http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-09-20/denmarks-economic-model-is-a-success
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2014 03:48 am
@hawkeye10,
And you don't think this would embolden Russia to take part of Eastern Ukraine as well? Putin has recalled to barracks Russian troops on the border with Ukraine. I doubt he would have done had Obama followed your supine lead.

Weren't you complaining that America's response was too supine up until now? You said talk was not enough, but you want to do even less than that.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2014 04:28 am
@Lordyaswas,
According to the World Economic Forum, the Europe's top-10 compatitive ecomies (data from January 2014) are

1. Switzerland, 2. Finland, 3. Germany, 4. Sweden, 5. The Netherlands,
6. The United Kingdom, 7. Norway, 8. Denmark, 9. Austria, 10. Belgium
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2014 05:11 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
You said talk was not enough
My view is that the tough talk is divorced from the reality of the lack of power of the West in general and America in particular to do anything about Russia taking back Crimea.

the most interesting analysis yet

Quote:
What can and should the United States do about the apparent de facto Russian annexation of the Crimea and the real possibility that it will move to exert effective control of at least parts of eastern Ukraine? If the goal is to significantly affect events on the ground in the short term, then the short answer is that nothing Washington can realistically do is likely to have much effect. Force is clearly off the table, as well it should be, which makes the welter of suggestions that there should be shows of force such as U.S. naval exercises in the Black Sea, the deployment of missiles in the Czech Republic, and the beefing up of NATO forces on the Polish-Ukrainian border, seem as unserious as they would be costly. Yes, the United States can impose unilateral sanctions and freeze some bank accounts, but Europe is unlikely follow in any serious, prolonged way for the simple reason that major nations in the E.U., above all Germany, are at least as dependent on Russia economically as Russia is on them.

To me, the more interesting question is why in 2014 the conviction persists among much of the policy establishment that the wishes of the United States should prevail everywhere in the world, including in a region bordering on Russia? Is it because people in Washington believe that the march of liberal capitalist democracy across the world is inevitable—Fukuyama’s "End of History," and all that? At the very least, the consensus seems to be that Russia’s actions were the direct result of American weakness, or, more precisely, the Obama administration’s fecklessness. The possibility that they were, instead, the result of Russian strength must be simply too horrible to contemplate.


It’s an old Washington trope, this "Who lost _____?" In the case of the Crimea, the accusations have already begun to fly thick and fast. Asked on CNN Sunday what he would do, Senator Lindsay Graham replied, “I would like to tie a democratic noose around Russia.” Presumably he meant granting NATO membership to Georgia, and making as many forward deployments of NATO ground, air, and missile forces along the Russian border. If the senator imagines this will make Putin back down, he’s an idiot; if he thinks that should Russia persist, those forces should be used, he’s a monster.

My own intuition is that the storm over Ukraine is actually mostly a displacement of the Iran debate. It seems inexplicable otherwise: a Russian takeover of the Crimea, where the Russian Black Sea fleet already was based and came and went as it pleased, changes nothing about the geo-strategic calculus in the region. What makes a bit more sense is that those who believe that Iran will never relinquish its nuclear weapons program and that, sooner or later, the U.S. must grasp the nettle and launch military strikes, look at American impotence in Ukraine and worry it’s a harbinger of the future. For Simferopol, read Natanz.


http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116834/us-debate-over-ukraine-has-everything-do-iran

Sounds about right...this is about America not being OK with our fall from global power, and the EU being till now tender about making it clear that American rhetoric does not suit their interests. America can say "**** russia", Europe cant.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2014 05:16 am
@hawkeye10,
The West has plenty of things it can do, the rouble is currently in free fall, and Russian oligarchs could find all their assets frozen. Not all power is military.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2014 06:30 am
Quote:
Ukraine says OSCE military observers to go to Crimea
(Reuters) - Ukraine said on Tuesday that observers from a pan-European security body would travel at its invitation to the Crimea region, where Russian forces have taken control, in an attempt to defuse a military standoff.

"An OSCE mission has arrived in Kiev which will go to the Crimean peninsula to monitor the situation," Ukraine's national security chief, Andriy Paruby, told a news conference in Kiev.

He said the security situation on the Black Sea peninsula was "complicated but stable".

Several members of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe - including the United States - were set to send observers on the mission, tentatively scheduled to start on Wednesday and last a week, diplomatic sources at OSCE headquarters in Vienna said. They said the mission could be extended for longer.

It was not immediately clear whether Russia would allow monitors to enter the region, where it controls the airspace and access points. The diplomats said Russia's agreement was not legally necessary.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2014 07:29 am
From the Guardian's blog (and that report mirrors my opinion
Quote:
The Guardian’s Berlin correspondent, Philip Oltermann, has sent this analysis through on Germany’s response to the crisis:

Many expectations rest on the shoulders of Angela Merkel: many believe that if any Western leader has the ear of Vladimir Putin, it is the German chancellor – not just because she speaks fluent Russian, but because of the close trade relations between Russia and Germany. Germany draws around a third of its gas and oil imports from Russia; Germany is Russia’s biggest trade partner after China, even if trade volume shrunk in 2013 for the first time in years.

This may also explain why spokespersons in the chancellory were yesterday eager to deny that Merkel believed Putin had “lost touch with reality”, as the New York Times had reported. They claimed that the German chancellor had merely told US president Obama that Putin had a very different perspective on events in the Crimea.

While the tenor of voices in Berlin are highly critical of the Kremlin’s aggressive stance over the Ukraine, the German chancellor also has to negotiate a number of more pro-Russian voices in her own government.

Foreign minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier has played a more active role in diplomatic negotiations over the last few weeks, calling for sanctions against the Ukraine while Merkel merely emphasised dialogue. Last night, he described the current stand-off as “Europe’s biggest crisis since the fall of the wall”.

But Gernot Erler, a social democrat and the government’s special coordinator of Russia policy, has warned against economic sanctions and argued that “the economic community should concentrate on diplomatic solutions until the very last minute”.
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2014 08:27 am
Quote:
Putin Has No Plans To Annex Crimea, But They Have The Right To Self-Determination


In his remarks Tuesday, Putin said that Russia has no plans to annex Crimea. But he also added that "only the residents of Crimea may conduct their own election," leaving open the possibility that if they voted to be annexed, then the peninsula could become part of Russia. This is precisely how the bill in the Duma would work -- a local referendum held in a foreign state would have to take place before the territory became part of Russia. But Ukraine appears to have no mechanism for a local referendum -- any referendum would involve the whole country.


source
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2014 08:34 am
There will be an extraordinary NATO-Russia council meeting tomorrow. Russia agreed to the meeting today.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2014 09:13 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Russian navy ships are blocking both ends of the Kerch strait separating Crimea and Russia, Ukrainian border guards have said, according to a Reuters newsflash.

http://i1334.photobucket.com/albums/w641/Walter_Hinteler/a_zps94919e5e.jpg
http://i1334.photobucket.com/albums/w641/Walter_Hinteler/b_zpsa82f2a25.jpg
Border (ferry-route) at http://i1334.photobucket.com/albums/w641/Walter_Hinteler/c_zps7bcfa5a0.jpg


Yesterday, Russian prime minister Dmitry Medvedev ordered that a bridge should be built across the 4.5km (2.7-mile) wide strait to connect Crimea with Russia.
 

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