31
   

COUP IN KYIV?

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2014 03:31 pm
Quote:
UNITED NATIONS (AP) -- Russia's U.N. ambassador says Ukraine's fugitive President Viktor Yanukovych asked President Vladimir Putin to use Russia's armed forces "to establish legitimacy, peace, law and order, stability and defending the people of Ukraine."

Ambassador Vitaly Churkin told the U.N. Security Council Monday he was authorized to read a statement from Yanukovych - and show members a copy - which says that "as the legitimately elected representative" he believes "Ukraine is on the brink of civil war."

Russia has effectively seized control of Ukraine's strategic Crimean peninsula.

Churkin quoted Yanukovic, who fled to Russia, as saying "the life and security and the rights of people particularly in the southeast part in Crimea are being threatened," and continued: "So under the influence of Western countries there are open acts of terror and violence."
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2014 03:31 pm
@Lordyaswas,
Lordyaswas wrote:
If there is NO violence against the Russians at all, Putin would find it very difficult to justify incursions further than Crimea.


I think Russia has just started to concern itself with outside opinion. The insistence that they did not issue an ultimatum to Ukrainian forces, even if they did, shows they don't want to look like the ones who are firing the first shots, (or even threatening to do so.)
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2014 03:32 pm
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:
Its all so disillusioning.




Welcome to the real world. Now you know where it is, don't be a stranger.
0 Replies
 
Lordyaswas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2014 03:33 pm
@izzythepush,
I thought the same thing when I heard that on the news.

Let's hope it's actually how they want to act now.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2014 03:46 pm
@Lordyaswas,
In 1970, I've been in a couple of rather ... well, uncomfortable situations during my time with our cheapest travel-agency navy. These couple of situations refer to confrontations with GDR warships, and more than once our captain told us that he didn't want to mentioned in history books as the one who started WWIII.
A friend of my late mother-in-law was on exactly that GDR-ship, we had had the most trouble with. His captain told them the same as our did ...

(It's a different story that we were the only West German ship to have been in GDR-territory, under battle-closure condition, and due to "my fault" [because a spy couldn't swim the last couple of metres to get out of the 3-miles-zone, I made some navigational mistakes])
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2014 03:48 pm
@Lordyaswas,
I don't know a whole lot as can be evidenced by some of the things I say, but even I can see how easy it would be Russia to keep the reigns on the rest of Ukraine if Crimea is just considered gone and everybody goes about their business. Russia troops would probably remain in Crimea which would be an intimating act towards Ukraine's sovereignty. From the little I have read, Ukraine's military is almost laughable in comparison to Russia. Do you honestly think all Putin's wants is Crimea and has no interest in the politics of the rest of Ukraine and would not use his military might to intimidate the Ukrainians from Crimea?
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2014 03:54 pm
@revelette2,
I think that he certainly has interests in the politics of the Ukraine - more than any other country has in those of its neighbours.
Ukrainians in the majority aren't anti-Russian at all (about 2 million Ukrainians live in Russia).
But I doubt that he's interested in getting similar troubles like in Chechnya now and here with the Tartars.
0 Replies
 
Lordyaswas
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2014 04:11 pm
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:

I don't know a whole lot as can be evidenced by some of the things I say, but even I can see how easy it would be Russia to keep the reigns on the rest of Ukraine if Crimea is just considered gone and everybody goes about their business. Russia troops would probably remain in Crimea which would be an intimating act towards Ukraine's sovereignty. From the little I have read, Ukraine's military is almost laughable in comparison to Russia. Do you honestly think all Putin's wants is Crimea and has no interest in the politics of the rest of Ukraine and would not use his military might to intimidate the Ukrainians from Crimea?


Rev, Crimea IS gone. Anyway, if you think that it is just by having Crimea that enables Russia to intimidate, then you should look at the map again.
Russia's border with east Ukraine runs for hundreds of miles of flat, open country. Crimea could be taken out of the equation altogether, and Russia could still easily terrify Ukraine on a daily basis.

The best that Ukraine can get out of this is a re-establishnent of reasonably amicable relations with Russia, and to establish themselves as a new beacon of absolute neutrality. A sort of new fangled Switzerland, but without the mountains, cuckoo clocks and illicit gold.

If Ukraine even think about going the whole hog and joining the west and all its various alliances, Russia will annexe it in a heartbeat.
There is no way that Putin will allow that east west buffer zone to disappear, or even be eroded.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2014 04:20 pm
@Lordyaswas,
Ukraine has quite a few mountains, the Carpathian Mountains are partly on their territory Wink
(And the Black Forest is famous for cuckoo clocks - they were "invented" there Wink )
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2014 04:28 pm
Well, I'm going to take a breather and just see how this unfolds in the coming days or weeks, depending how fast they unfold.

I'll just say that if the people in Ukraine wants to join the EU thing in which we talked about yesterday, (which the former leader backed out of which started the protest...) they should be allowed to without Russia breathing heavy on their necks all the while. Putin reminds me of an abusive husband who has kept the reigns on his wife by keeping her depended on him financially and food and shelter, and the minute she starts to look for alternatives, starts using physical threats and then finally actual physical abuse. Do you just tell the wife to be a good little girl and knuckle under?
Lordyaswas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2014 04:30 pm
@revelette2,
Cuba?
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2014 04:46 pm
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:
Putin reminds me of an abusive husband who has kept the reigns on his wife by keeping her depended on him financially and food and shelter, and the minute she starts to look for alternatives, starts using physical threats and then finally actual physical abuse.


So your considered analysis of all of this is that Putin is not a very nice man. We're very lucky to have such insight.

Rev wrote:
Do you just tell the wife to be a good little girl and knuckle under?


How far do you think you can push this analogy? You'd tell the wife to pack her bags and go. How do you envisage Ukraine doing that? Maybe they could drill around the borders, and use some sort of shrink ray technology to float off into the Caspian Sea, perhaps they could use rockets to blast Ukraine into a low orbit. Or do you suggest the whole population of Ukraine up sticks and leave? That'll larn Putin.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2014 04:52 pm
In everything there is always the bizarre, Twitter spat between ex Tory MP and chicklit author Louise Mensch and the Russian Embassy in London.

http://www.channel4.com/news/ukraine-louise-mensch-russian-embassy-twitter-row
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2014 06:45 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter quote: We are using all of our channels of dialogue to make the case to Russia that it doesn't have to be this way, that it should make a 21st century choice to settle its issues politically and through negotiation, not with military force."[...]

--------------
Was the same request made of the USA to forsake savagery and join the civilized nations?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2014 06:49 pm
@revelette2,
Rev: One is lying, no way to know for sure who.
///////

The CIA.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2014 06:56 pm
@glitterbag,
Gb the idiot: so much for Bush 43 looking deep in the eyes of the former head of the KGB and seeing a good man.
/////

"43", that's Bush's IQ. Let Putin crush the Ukraine and that still won't match the war crimes of bush and the war criminal Neo cons.

0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2014 12:48 am
Quotes from two reports from last night/this morning

Quote:
A rift appeared to be opening up on Monday night between the US and Europe on how to punish Vladimir Putin for his occupation of Ukraine's Crimea peninsula, with European capitals resisting Washington's push towards tough sanctions.

With the Americans, supported by parts of eastern Europe and Sweden, pushing for punitive measures against Moscow, EU foreign ministers divided into hawks and doves, preferring instead to pursue mediation and monitoring of the situation in Ukraine and to resist a strong sanctions package against Russia.
Source


Quote:
If Yatsenyuk and Turchinov send the Ukrainian army up against the vastly superior Russian military, a bloodbath looms. But if they submit to the Russians, the radical nationalists will accuse them of betraying the country.

All signs point to Russia annexing Crimea and possibly eastern parts of Ukraine, which will have dire consequences. In the long run, it will weaken moderate powers in Ukraine and could pave the way for the nationalists to take power. And if they do, revenge will be on their minds.
Source
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2014 01:21 am
Quote:
In addition, Putin still holds too many trump cards. Currently, Obama relies on Russia in both the nuclear negotiations with Iran and the Syrian crisis. According to critics, the White House is giving off the impression that it doesn't know itself what will come after the provocation and the threats. For numerous Republicans in the US Congress, the US has not yet gone far enough.
"The lesson of America's weakness is really becoming pervasive and will spread worldwide," said John Bolton, former US ambassador to the United Nations. "I think Putin at this point holds all the high cards, and I think all we have to offer from President Obama is rhetoric."


http://www.dw.de/alarm-grows-over-russian-moves-in-ukraine/a-17468701

YEP....

Obama thinks he talks pretty good, but that is not always enough.
Lordyaswas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2014 01:40 am
@hawkeye10,
Yet talk is about all he can do at this moment in time.

What else would you suggest?
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2014 02:12 am
@Lordyaswas,
Don't hold your breath, Hawkeye's very good at sneering, but that's about it.

NB. Dubya was in the Oval Office when Russia invaded Nagorno-Karabakh, and he didn't fare much better.
0 Replies
 
 

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