31
   

COUP IN KYIV?

 
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2014 04:47 am
@hawkeye10,
Putin wants Yanukovych back in power, and the agreement he signed with Yanukovych to be implemented. Has that happened?
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2014 04:48 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
it has been over half a day, who is ready to explain why Putin does not get what he wants?

Do we have a working definition of "what Putin wants"?

I'm sure he wants to keep access to this naval base.

I'm also sure he wants to not send pro-Western sections of Ukraine into the arms of NATO.

Achieving only one of those goals is easy enough. Achieving them both will require a bit of a balancing act.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2014 05:02 am
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:

You mean as long as Putin just takes Crimea and doesn't kill people, it will be ok?


He will take it in all but name. Russia's fleet will be safeguarded and Crimea will either be a highly autonomous part of Ukraine, or independent, but recognised only by Russia. Considering most Crimeans support Russia's actions it will be very difficult for the West to act otherwise.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2014 05:03 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter: an argumentation, which has been a couple of times in recent history by other nations as well ...
//////////

What nations would that be, Walter?
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2014 07:18 am
@izzythepush,
Well, I don't see how ya"ll can just think all this is ok. Russia is now going into the outer parts of Ukraine, they have been sending their own citizens over in Ukraine posing as protestors against those in Ukraine in a propaganda war I guess. And the whole world just has to watch as Russia does this and do absolutely nothing? I think it is unacceptable. What if those in Ukraine start getting killed, again, no one does nothing?

(I don't want to hear it JTT)

Ukraine mobilizes after Putin's 'declaration of war'

Quote:

(Reuters) - Ukraine mobilized for war on Sunday, after Russian President Vladimir Putin declared he had the right to invade, creating the biggest confrontation between Moscow and the West since the Cold War.

"This is not a threat: this is actually the declaration of war to my country," said Ukraine's Prime Minister Arseny Yatseniuk, head of a pro-Western government that took power when Russian ally Viktor Yanukovich fled last week.

Putin obtained permission from his parliament on Saturday to use military force to protect Russian citizens in Ukraine, spurning Western pleas not intervene.

Russian forces have already bloodlessly seized Crimea - an isolated Black Sea peninsula where Moscow has a naval base. On Sunday they surrounded several small Ukrainian military outposts there and demanded the Ukrainian troops disarm. Some refused, although no shots were fired.

Ukraine's security council ordered the general staff to immediately put all armed forces on highest alert, the council's secretary Andriy Parubiy announced.

The Defense Ministry was ordered to conduct a call-up of reserves - theoretically all men up to 40 in a country with universal male conscription, though Ukraine would struggle to find extra guns or uniforms for significant numbers of them.

"If President Putin wants to be the president who started the war between two neighboring and friendly countries, between Ukraine and Russia, so: he has reached this target within a few inches. We are on the brink of disaster," Yatseniuk said in televised remarks in English, appealing for Western support.

THREAT TO EASTERN UKRAINE

At Kiev's Independence Square, where anti-Yanukovich protesters had camped out for months, thousands demonstrated against Russian military action. Placards read: "Putin, hands off Ukraine!"

Of potentially even greater concern than Russia's seizure of the Crimea are eastern swathes of the country, where most of the ethnic Ukrainians speak Russian as a native language.

Those areas saw violent protests on Saturday, with pro-Moscow demonstrators hoisting flags at government buildings and calling for Russia to defend them. Kiev said the protests were manufactured by Russia, accusing Moscow of sending hundreds of its citizens across the border to stage them.

Putin's declaration that he has the right to invade his neighbor - for which he quickly received the unanimous approval of his senate - brought the prospect of war to a country of 46 million people on the ramparts of central Europe.

"President Obama expressed his deep concern over Russia's clear violation of Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity, which is a breach of international law," the White House said after the leaders spoke for 90 minutes on Saturday.

Ukraine has appealed for help to NATO, and directly to Britain and the United States, as co-signatories with Moscow to a 1994 accord guaranteeing Ukraine's security after the breakup of the Soviet Union.

NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen accused Russia of threatening peace and security in Europe before NATO ambassadors met in Brussels to discuss their next steps.

Washington has proposed sending monitors to Ukraine under the flags of the United Nations or Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, bodies where Moscow would have a veto.

So far, the Western response has been largely symbolic. Obama and other leaders suspended plans to attend a G8 summit in Sochi, where Putin has just finished staging his $50 billion winter Olympic games. Some countries recalled ambassadors.

"This is probably the most dangerous situation in Europe since the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968," said a Western official. "Realistically, we have to assume the Crimea is in Russian hands. The challenge now is to deter Russia from taking over the Russian-speaking east of Ukraine."

NO MATCH

Ukraine's tiny armed forces would be no match against the might of its superpower neighbor. Britain's International Institute of Strategic Studies estimates Kiev has fewer than 130,000 troops under arms, with planes barely ready to fly and few spare parts for a single submarine.

Russia, by contrast, has spent billions under Putin to upgrade and modernize the capabilities of forces that were dilapidated after the breakup of the Soviet Union. Moscow's special units are now seen as equals of the best in the world.

In Crimea, Ukraine's tiny contingent made no attempt to oppose the Russians, who bore no insignia on their uniforms but drove vehicles with Russian plates and seized government buildings, airports and other locations in the past three days. Kiev said its troops were encircled at least three places.

Igor Mamchev, a Ukrainian navy colonel at a small base near the regional capital Simferopol, told Ukraine's Channel 5 television a truckload of Russian troops had arrived at his checkpoint and ordered him to surrender.

"I replied that, as I am a member of the armed forces of Ukraine, under orders of the Ukrainian navy, there could be no discussion of disarmament. In case of any attempt to enter the military base, we will use all means, up to lethal force.

"We are military people, who have given our oath to the people of Ukraine and will carry out our duty until the end."

Dmytro Delyatytskiy, commander of Ukrainian marines barricaded into a base in the Crimean port of Feodosia, told the same television station by telephone he had refused a Russian demand that his troops give up weapons by 10 a.m.

"We have orders," he said. "We are preparing our defenses."

Elsewhere on the occupied peninsula, the Russian forces appeared to be assuming a lower profile on Sunday after the pro-Moscow Crimean leader announced overnight that the situation was now "normalized". Russians had vanished from outside a small Ukrainian guard post in the port of Balaclava that they had surrounded with armored vehicles on Saturday.

A barricade in front of the Crimean regional parliament had been dismantled. A single armored vehicle with two soldiers drove through the main square, where people snapped photos.

Putin's justification - the need to protect Russian citizens - was the same as he used to launch a 2008 invasion of Georgia, where Russian forces seized two breakaway regions.

In Russia, state controlled media portray Yanukovich's removal as a coup by dangerous extremists funded by the West and there has been little sign of dissent with that line.

Russian officials have repeatedly described Ukraine's Russian speakers - some of whom have Russian passports - as facing urgent danger. Itar-Tass quoted Russian border guards as saying 675,000 people had fled Ukraine for Russia in the past two months and there were signs of a "humanitarian catastrophe".

Putin told Obama "there are real threats to the life and health of Russian citizens and compatriots on Ukrainian territory". Moscow reserved the right to intervene on behalf of Russian speakers anywhere they were threatened, Putin added, according to the Kremlin's readout of the phone call.

RUSSIAN FLAGS

So far there has been no sign of Russian military action in Ukraine outside Crimea, but Kiev officials accused Moscow of being behind a pattern of violent protests in other eastern cities as a pretext to launch a wider invasion.

Pro-Moscow demonstrators flew Russian flags on Saturday at government buildings in the cities of Kharkiv, Donetsk, Odessa and Dnipropetrovsk. In places they clashed with anti-Russian protesters and guards trying to defend the buildings.

Ukrainian parliamentarian Hrygory Nemyriya, a spokesman to foreign journalists for the new authorities, said the pro-Moscow marchers were sent from Russia. He described a pattern of "Russian citizens in Ukrainian provinces orchestrating the illegal seizure of government buildings".

The worst violence took place in Kharkiv, where scores of people were hurt on Saturday when thousands of pro-Russian activists, some brandishing axe handles and chains, stormed the regional government and fought pitched battles with a smaller number of supporters of Ukraine's new authorities.

In Donetsk, Yanukovich's home city, the local government has called for a referendum on the region's status, a move Kiev says is illegal. A pro-Russian "self-defense" unit, which staged a big protest on Saturday, scheduled another for Sunday.


(Additional reporting by Natalia Zinets, Pavel Polityuk, Timothy Heritage and Stephen Grey in Kiev, Lina Kushch in Donetsk, Peter Apps in London, Steve Holland and Phil Stewart in Washington and Lou Charbonneau at the United Nations; writing by Peter Graff; editing by Ralph Boulton and Philippa Fletcher)
Setanta
 
  4  
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2014 07:28 am
@revelette2,
What do you suggest that the West do?
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2014 08:00 am
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:

Well, I don't see how ya"ll can just think all this is ok. Russia is now going into the outer parts of Ukraine, they have been sending their own citizens over in Ukraine posing as protestors against those in Ukraine in a propaganda war I guess.


Russian troops are so far only in Crimea, as they were when before this crisis began. you've no proof that the pro Russian demonstrations in Eastern Ukraine are being carried out by Russians, not Russian speaking Ukrainians.

As for Crimea, the Crimeans actually want the Russians there, unlike Guantanamo Bay where the Cubans do not want the Americans. Maybe America should lead by example and give Guantanamo Bay back to the Cuban people.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2014 08:12 am
@izzythepush,
We had had just coffee and cake with one of the guests being an Ukrainian, living here since ages. But all her family (besides her German husband) is still in the Ukraine, mainly on the Crimean peninsula.
Her parents are Russians, never applied for the Ukrainian passport. She (and her siblings) says, she's a Russian Ukrainian ...
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2014 09:04 am
Now it's really serious: Russian (state-run) tv Channel One says, it won't air the Oscars tonight because of events in Ukraine ...
Lash
 
  2  
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2014 09:13 am
@oralloy,
He doesn't have to explain what he wants, obviously. He just takes it. He's cobbling his empire back together - and he'll fight for it while puppet organizations stand in front of microphones.
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2014 09:34 am
@Setanta,
I don't know Setanta I guess stand by and watch it happen. What do we normally do when something like this happens? I am beginning to see why the rest of the world who don't have nukes wants them, if you have nukes you can do anything you want.
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2014 10:10 am
@izzythepush,
Putin has said he has the right to protect all Russian speaking citizens, I assume there are Russian speaking citizens all over Ukraine. There was accusation made from KYIV that Russia has been setting a pattern of pro-Russia protest as a pretext for further invasion. Its in the article I left in my previous post.

As for alternatives for Russia if Putin is really concerned for its citizens in Ukraine, why doesn't he take up US and others's suggestions of international monitors in the area?
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2014 10:14 am
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:
What do we normally do when something like this happens?
Some quotes from Sunday’s talk shows via WJS blog
Quote:
Sen. Lindsey Graham (R., S.C.) on CNN’s “State of the Union”:
"We have a weak and indecisive president that invites aggression. President Obama needs to do something.”

House Intelligence Committee Chairman Mike Rogers (R., Mich.) on “Fox News Sunday”:
There’s not a lot of options on the table, candidly … Putin is playing chess and we are playing marbles.

Mr. Kerry on ABC’s “This Week”:
We don’t want this to be a larger confrontation. We are not looking for a U.S.-Russia East-West redux here.

Ukraine U.N. Ambassador Yuriy Sergeyev, on CNN’s “State of the Union”:
When the Russian troops are enlarging their quantity with every coming hour, naturally we’ll ask for military support and other kinds of support.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2014 10:14 am
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:
In your country, there have protest against Putin's invasion by Ukrainians.


Your point being?

You seem to confuse realpolitik with advocacy. You've said yourself you think it's best not to do anything, how is what I've said any different?

rev wrote:
As for Cuba, before my time. If people want to give it back, it is fine with me.


It's not before your time at all. Guantanamo Bay is occupied by America now. Saying if people want to give it back, that's alright by you, is not an answer. The Cubans do want it back. Does your supposed desire for territorial integrity stretch as far as writing to your representatives and demanding Guatanamo Bay be returned to Cuba, or is it just reserved for the Russians?

I don't think it's worth starting a war to force a load of Crimeans to be Ukrainian when most of them don't want to be.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2014 10:16 am
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:
As for alternatives for Russia if Putin is really concerned for its citizens in Ukraine, why doesn't he take up US and others's suggestions of international monitors in the area?


Why do you think? He's not going to invite the Americans in, he's not stupid.
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2014 10:16 am
Updates here
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2014 10:17 am
@izzythepush,
He doesn't have to, I said international monitors, which could come from more places that the US.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2014 10:22 am
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:
Putin has said he has the right to protect all Russian speaking citizens, I assume there are Russian speaking citizens all over Ukraine.
I think, the question is more which is the first/native language

http://i1334.photobucket.com/albums/w641/Walter_Hinteler/a_zps991fcc48.jpg


Interesting this map as well

http://i1334.photobucket.com/albums/w641/Walter_Hinteler/b_zps71d30eff.jpg
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2014 10:25 am
@izzythepush,
The Cuba thing is red herring and I am going to ignore it. Feel free to make of it what you will.

Sending monitors I think is a good idea rather than doing nothing. If the people in Crimea really want to break away and be part of Russia, perhaps there could be negotiations worked out between the rest of Ukraine and Crimea. However, Russia does not have to have troops in Ukraine even if it is just in Crimea. International monitors could be there to protect any innocents from being killed. But Russia is not there for that, but rather to keep the rest of Ukraine from joining with the west (nato) of which they have no right to force it militarily.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2014 10:27 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Ive been on line with several cousins in the Lvov (lnin) re and they are quite concerned about the other side of the family in the East.
0 Replies
 
 

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