31
   

COUP IN KYIV?

 
 
Lordyaswas
 
  3  
Reply Thu 27 Feb, 2014 07:50 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Oh god! I hope he didn't turn down the lights, open the sherry and put on the Barry White LP again.
panzade
 
  3  
Reply Thu 27 Feb, 2014 08:23 am
@Lordyaswas,
Honestly! You lot sound like Smiley talking to Bill Haydon in an MI6 boardroom.
Lordyaswas
 
  3  
Reply Thu 27 Feb, 2014 08:25 am
@panzade,
As long as it's the Alec Guinness Smiley, I'm happy to take the scolding.
panzade
 
  3  
Reply Thu 27 Feb, 2014 08:37 am
@Lordyaswas,
No scolding and Guiness is Smiley, isn't he?
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Thu 27 Feb, 2014 08:50 am
@panzade,
Do you think for one moment, Pan, that the USA/CIA and the uk poodles are not involved in this?
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Feb, 2014 09:00 am
@revelette2,
If everyone is corrupt, and only one person is charged with corruption, it's political. This isn't the West.
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Thu 27 Feb, 2014 09:04 am
@izzythepush,
Izzy: If everyone is corrupt, and only one person is charged with corruption, it's political. This isn't the West.
------_

If many were war criminals and not a one was charged, it's political. This is the West.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Thu 27 Feb, 2014 10:26 am
Interesting map and article:
Ukraine's East-West Divide: It's Not That Simple
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Feb, 2014 02:00 pm
Lindsey Hilsum's blog.
Quote:
I’ve never heard the word “fascist” bandied around quite so liberally as I have over the last few days in Crimea. To the Russian speaking demonstrators here the new authorities in Kiev are fascists, the European Union is fascist, western journalists are fascists. Undoubtedly the men who stormed into the Crimean state parliament in Simferopol in the early hours of this morning and raised the Russian flag are acting to resist fascism.
People in Ukraine have long memories – it’s as if we’re in 1944, not 2014. Today’s politics is rooted in World War ll when some Ukrainian nationalists in the west of the country collaborated with the Nazis. Easterners, especially those in Crimea, glory in their fathers’ and mothers’ heroic resistance to Nazism.

In Sevastopol, the eternal flame burns in front of a monument to what they still, like the Soviets, call “The Great Patriotic War”.

It’s dedicated to those who defended Sevastopol during 250 days of German occupation in 1941 and 1942. One huge granite wall is inscribed with the names of 54 “Heroes of the Soviet Union.”

“We have different heroes from people in the west,” said a young woman.

In the western city of Lviv, on Ukraine’s border with Poland, which I visited last week, some people follow the Ukrainian nationalist Stepan Bandera. He briefly cooperated with the Germans as they occupied Ukraine after Operation Barbarossa in 1941. The Nazis then arrested and imprisoned him, but no matter – to many in the east he, and all who admire him, are fascists.

There were other Ukrainian nationalists who collaborated with the Nazis and committed atrocities. Just as there were Ukrainians in the east who cooperated with Stalin who was responsible for famine, the ethnic cleansing of Crimean Tatars and other mass crimes. Ukraine’s history is brutal beyond words.

For decades Russian propaganda has equated Ukrainian nationalism with fascism, but some of those involved in the protests that brought down the government of Viktor Yanukovich play into that stereotype.

One night in Lviv we came across a unit of young men marching down the street allegedly keeping law and order in the absence of the police. Their leader, Yuri, who was all of 17, wore military fatigues that he had bought year ago, waiting for the suitable moment to parade them.

He and his group were from the Right Sector, a far right group that has been associated with anti-Semitism as well as nationalism. Right Sector vigilantes fought the Berkut riot police in Kiev’s Maidan Square last week and have been embraced by some in the new government.

This is not simply a struggle between western Ukrainians who long for European-style democracy, and renegades from the east longing for the Communist past.

In Crimea, which only became part of Ukraine in 1954, most people see Russia as their cultural, linguistic and political motherland. No wonder they grew angry when one of the first acts of the new government in Kiev was to declare Ukrainian as the country’s sole official language, downgrading Russian.

The Russian flag flying on the roof of the Crimean parliament is a challenge to the new government in Kiev which should be sworn in today.

They have to reassure people in Crimea that their wishes will be taken into account.

But the rhetoric is high on both sides, and President Putin’s decision to put his military on alert has upped the ante.

The stand off at the regional parliament in Simferopol can only be ended through negotiation – any attempt to use force of arms would surely pitch Ukraine into a dangerous conflict.
http://blogs.channel4.com/lindsey-hilsum-on-international-affairs/tensions-rise-protestors-storm-crimean-state-parliament/3453
panzade
 
  2  
Reply Thu 27 Feb, 2014 02:10 pm
@izzythepush,
Too complicated for me.
I wish them well.
America with benevolent neighbors and England with a deep moat and English speaking neighbors should be thankful
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Thu 27 Feb, 2014 02:11 pm
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:
I agree in that situation it would have been useful to have a gun to use against the riot police, however, more than likely, the riot police would have just got bigger weapons. Guns would do little good against Russian tanks, unless of course you advocate everyone should have the right the bear tanks or whatever else is used. My point being is this situation seems a little beyond a simple right to defend yourself with guns argument.
Please reveal how many of the decedents had NO guns
when thay were killed by riot police.

Do u know how many of them woud remain alive
if thay had been able to fight back
against the police who killed them??

Decedents OBAYED the Ukrainian gun control law.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Feb, 2014 03:02 pm
@panzade,
panzade wrote:
England with a deep moat and English speaking neighbors should be thankful


What? The French?
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Feb, 2014 03:02 pm
@izzythepush,
I suspect he means Ireland, Scotland and Wales.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Thu 27 Feb, 2014 03:14 pm
@Setanta,
You call that English?
panzade
 
  2  
Reply Thu 27 Feb, 2014 03:21 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
You call that English?


See Set? That's how these sectarian wars get started. Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Lordyaswas
 
  2  
Reply Thu 27 Feb, 2014 03:22 pm
@izzythepush,
I understood a Welshman once. Mind you, he was my Grandad and used quite a bit of sign language.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Thu 27 Feb, 2014 03:24 pm
I can see that . . . i've even encountered the odd (emphasis on odd) Englishman who could, from time to time, make himself understood by an English speaker.
Lordyaswas
 
  4  
Reply Thu 27 Feb, 2014 03:43 pm
@Setanta,
One big similarity I found was in stagger pattern.

1978, Benidorm, 2.30am, I was staggering back from a German disco (true story) after losing my mates, when I saw what turned out to be a Glaswegian staggering the other way.
There was a chequerboard style pavement, about thirty feet wide, and we were the only two around.
After several changes of approach stagger, we both realised that our major changes in direction actually mirrored each others exactly, and we smacked into one another.
We stood there rubbing our bumped bits for a few seconds, he offered me a fag (cig), I took it, then we both lit up and grinned drunkenly at each other.
We shook hands, had a man hug and staggered on our way.

Synchronised stagger could cure a lot of problems around the world, I think.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Feb, 2014 03:48 pm
There was a great passage in The Mauritius Command by Patrick O'Brian--he always introduced the comical into his stories. The eminent Irish physician is in a cheap tavern in Simonstown (Cape of Good Hope) taking to an eminent Norn Iron alienist, and they're watching a Russian consuming cheap rot-gut. The head doctor is saying that he's testing a theory about the motor centers in the brain--if the suject falls backward, it means one thing, if he falls forward, it means another. The Orangeman, in fact, passes out before the Russian captain, who falls over sideways--the Irish doctor decides that the results were inconclusive.
Lordyaswas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Feb, 2014 03:52 pm
@Setanta,
I love that kind of humour.

I will keep my eye out for Mr O'Brian.
0 Replies
 
 

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