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Oh, will the bullshyt never end?

 
 
snood
 
Reply Sun 16 Feb, 2014 05:27 am
Would the finely tuned minds here at A2K please to explain to me: How in the hell someone can be guilty of ATTEMPTED murder, but not of murder - if they were successful in their attempt to kill the person?
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Type: Question • Score: 21 • Views: 4,216 • Replies: 66

 
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Sun 16 Feb, 2014 06:27 am
@snood,
Have you ever served on a jury, Snood?
snood
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Feb, 2014 07:02 am
@maxdancona,
So your answer is - It's an involving and difficult decision making process?
snood
 
  2  
Reply Sun 16 Feb, 2014 07:07 am
I actually got an "explanation" from CNN a few minutes ago... Some lawyer got on there and said that the reasoning was:
He could clearly be said to be attempting to murder the three other young men with the 6 shots at the vehicle as it fled, but that it was still unclear to the jurors whether he was defending himself with the first 4 shots directed at the young man he had words with in the stationary vehicle.

Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Sun 16 Feb, 2014 07:26 am
@snood,
It is absolute bloody insanity is what it is...no matter that a jury was able to justify it.

Somehow the state of Florida has got to get itself into some kind of reasonable order, but I doubt that will happen any time soon.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Feb, 2014 07:33 am
@snood,
Quote:
So your answer is - It's an involving and difficult decision making process?


Quite the contrary... I am saying that people are idiots. If you pick 12 random people to make an important (sometimes life or death) decision, you can't expect rational. I did serve on a jury. The experience ruined my faith in the justice system.

0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  3  
Reply Sun 16 Feb, 2014 07:48 am
I served on a jury, where it was open and shut the defendant was guilty - to eleven of us. The twelfth had a misapplied stubbornness that almost resulted in a hung jury. There is a lot of stupid out there. Then, when you are dealing with black/white in the mix, it jumps from stupid to insane.
Ragman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 16 Feb, 2014 08:03 am
@edgarblythe,
Generally reading about this makes me sad...but participating on a jury where you see where the 'rubber meets the road' reaches deep down to a whole different level of sadness.

I have a thought on modifying the jury selection process. I know why this wouldn't happen but here's my fantasy. The judge helps pick the juror candidates. He wouldn't have the final say...but he/she could eliminate obvious 'lemons'. Perhaps it could help eliminate the 'too stupid and/or ignorant candidates from the pool. As I said, it's a fantasy.
tsarstepan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Feb, 2014 08:22 am
@snood,
snood wrote:

Would the finely tuned minds here at A2K please to explain to me: How in the hell someone can be guilty of ATTEMPTED murder, but not of murder - if they were successful in their attempt to kill the person?

Context would be more then nice. You've been online long enough to know that by now. Can't answer that or consider answering the question without details.
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Sun 16 Feb, 2014 08:27 am
@snood,
snood wrote:
Would the finely tuned minds here at A2K please to explain to me: How in the hell someone can be guilty of ATTEMPTED murder, but not of murder - if they were successful in their attempt to kill the person

I was wondering the same thing. Beats me.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  2  
Reply Sun 16 Feb, 2014 08:43 am
@tsarstepan,
Quote:
(Reuters) - A Florida jury convicted a white, middle-aged man on Saturday of three counts of attempted murder for opening fire on a car of black teenagers during an argument over loud rap music, but could not reach a verdict on a murder charge for the killing of a 17-year-old in the car.

Michael Dunn, a 47-year-old software engineer, fired 10 rounds at a vehicle carrying four teens in a Jacksonville gas station parking lot in November 2012, killing black teen Jordan Davis.

The jury deadlocked on the most serious charge of first-degree murder against Dunn, forcing Judge Russell Healey to declare a mistrial on that count.

The failure to reach a verdict on the first-degree murder charge is a blow for the prosecution and the Davis family. But Dunn still faces at least 60 years in jail for the attempted murder convictions against the three other teens, legal analysts said.

Prosecutors told a press conference after the verdicts were read that they plan to retry Dunn, who has been in jail since his arrest in 2012, on the first-degree murder charge.

The jury also found Dunn guilty on a fifth count of firing into an occupied vehicle.


More: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/16/us-usa-florida-shooting-dunn-idUSBREA1E0MR20140216

I can't believe that Dunn and his family were shocked at the guilty verdict.

The fact that someone can say "I thought I saw a gun." as a defense is beyond incredible.

The trial has drawn international attention because of racial overtones and Dunn's claims of self-defense.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Feb, 2014 09:03 am
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:

Quote:
(Reuters) - A Florida jury convicted a white, middle-aged man on Saturday of three counts of attempted murder for opening fire on a car of black teenagers during an argument over loud rap music, but could not reach a verdict on a murder charge for the killing of a 17-year-old in the car.

Michael Dunn, a 47-year-old software engineer, fired 10 rounds at a vehicle carrying four teens in a Jacksonville gas station parking lot in November 2012, killing black teen Jordan Davis.

The jury deadlocked on the most serious charge of first-degree murder against Dunn, forcing Judge Russell Healey to declare a mistrial on that count.

The failure to reach a verdict on the first-degree murder charge is a blow for the prosecution and the Davis family. But Dunn still faces at least 60 years in jail for the attempted murder convictions against the three other teens, legal analysts said.

Prosecutors told a press conference after the verdicts were read that they plan to retry Dunn, who has been in jail since his arrest in 2012, on the first-degree murder charge.

The jury also found Dunn guilty on a fifth count of firing into an occupied vehicle.


More: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/16/us-usa-florida-shooting-dunn-idUSBREA1E0MR20140216

I can't believe that Dunn and his family were shocked at the guilty verdict.

The fact that someone can say "I thought I saw a gun." as a defense is beyond incredible.

The trial has drawn international attention because of racial overtones and Dunn's claims of self-defense.


The racial overtones should disgust anyone with a brain, Boom. And anyone who does not see racial overtones in this case is willfully blind.

But there is even more to consider at this point.

The entire "stand your ground" mentality...is devolving into a dynamic where
"I felt threatened" will be enough to justify a shoot out...whether there is actually a killing or not. Especially if, as some people would have it, EVERYONE would be carrying a gun.

That is why many sheriffs in the old American west used to require that itinerant cowpokes check their guns at the sheriff's office while in town!

0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Feb, 2014 09:22 am
I watched parts of the trial, and IMHO it was clearly at least second degree murder.
The "stand your ground" law, IMHO clearly did not apply.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Sun 16 Feb, 2014 12:29 pm
@snood,
I think they couldn't decide which level of murder to charge. They were allowed to pick 2nd or 3rd if they couldn't find for 1st degree. We won't know until someone in the jury talks about the negotiations.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Feb, 2014 01:13 pm
@Ragman,
Ragman wrote:

Generally reading about this makes me sad...but participating on a jury where you see where the 'rubber meets the road' reaches deep down to a whole different level of sadness.

I have a thought on modifying the jury selection process. I know why this wouldn't happen but here's my fantasy. The judge helps pick the juror candidates. He wouldn't have the final say...but he/she could eliminate obvious 'lemons'. Perhaps it could help eliminate the 'too stupid and/or ignorant candidates from the pool. As I said, it's a fantasy.

It's undesirable to put a long time employee of the justice system in charge who gets on a jury. A judge may have ties to the DA's office, or be buddies with someone, or be taking bribes. Random strangers, on the other hand, haven't been present long enough for there to be much likelihood that they have a personal stake or are taking bribes. I should have thought this was obvious.
Ragman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 16 Feb, 2014 02:10 pm
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:

I should have thought this was obvious.


Well, I must not be as observant and as brilliant as you are.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Feb, 2014 03:22 pm
@Ragman,
I don't share your faith in an unbiased judicial system. Judge decides the law and the jury decides the facts. I don't really think I want the two functions mingled.
Ragman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 16 Feb, 2014 03:24 pm
@roger,
Though I freely admit that I don't have much faith in judicial system, I'm in agreement with you.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  0  
Reply Sun 16 Feb, 2014 04:48 pm
@snood,
snood wrote:

Would the finely tuned minds here at A2K please to explain to me: How in the hell someone can be guilty of ATTEMPTED murder, but not of murder - if they were successful in their attempt to kill the person?


I don't see where the two crimes are mutually exclusive. Were you to succeed in murdering someone, you obviously made the attempt to do this.
jcboy
 
  2  
Reply Sun 16 Feb, 2014 05:09 pm
i think its 3 20 year minimum, consecutively, so 60 minimum, essentially life, and yes, it is sad this bullshit has continued.

Difference Between First and Second Degree Murder?

Quote:
When it comes to the degrees of murder, things can get a little tricky.

There's first and second degree murder, and even sometimes a third. Then there's voluntary and involuntary manslaughter.

And don't forget "adequate justification," which can downgrade a murder to a lower level.

To help make sense of the degrees of murder, we're going to start with the two most serious crimes in the murder spectrum, and pinpoint just what differs between a first and second degree killing.

First degree murder falls into one of the following two categories:

Premeditated, intentional killings
Felony murder
While second degree murder is either:

An unplanned, intentional killing; or
A death caused by a reckless disregard for human life
Putting aside felony murder, the real difference between first and second degree murder is the degree of intent under which the defendant acted when carrying out the killing.

First degree murder requires that a defendant plan and intentionally carry out the killing, whereas second degree murder requires that the killing either be intentional or reckless, and occur in the spur of the moment.

Taking the time to plan another's death is arguably a more serious crime.

An outlier, felony murder is a form of first degree murder that occurs when a person dies--even accidentally--during the commission of a violent felony.

For instance, if a robber unintentionally kills a patron in a liquor store, he's still committed first degree murder.

While it's easy to pinpoint the differences between degrees of murder in a theoretical manner, this is not always the case in a real life situation. When faced with evidence, there is often a very fine line between a first and second degree killing.
 

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