Death of a Hero - Pat Tillman

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No words of mine would adequately do this man justice. Only days after he married, Pat Tillman enlisted in the military to serve his country following the Sept 11th attacks. He walked away from a $3.6 million contract to make 18 grand as a foot soldier in the Army. His did this without self-aggrandizement, not as a media ploy, but quietly doing what he felt was right.
Tillman left the money, his new bride, a starting position in the NFL, the lights, the cameras, the celebrity, to defend America. He joined the Army Rangers (easily the toughest white SOF unit in the military), the most dangerous position a fresh recruit could be given. He chose to enlist, making him an infantryman instead of the easily attainable officer's commision. He was sent to Afghanistan to avenge Flights 11, 77, 93, 175. And some time yesterday he was killed in action.

I mourn this man. I never knew him, never knew of him till very recently. But this man's actions are the epitome of courage. Not just physical courage that keeps a man from running from a field of battle, but moral courage and courage of character. It must take enormous bravery and self-sacrifice to walk away from a millions of dollars, adoration, and a life of safety, only to fulfill a duty that only you can hear.
Patrick Tillman is a throwback to the days of unsung heros. A day when honor was not a cliche, and when citizens felt duty was not only a four letter word. The citizenry actively took a part in supporting and defending their culture and their country.
I was once asked by someone, a sophisticated intellectual, to point out a true hero. At the time I named names, but today I could only say Patrick Tillman. Many may call him a warmonger, or feel that they are more intellectually evolved than a man who rushed to join his countries fighting forces in a time of war. To those I say, he died so you could talk.

Despite my feelings, I guess he was successful. So let them all go ahead and talk.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4815441/

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Re: Death of a Hero - Pat Tillman

Lusatian wrote:

To those I say, he died so you could talk.

What bullshit! Military-types frequently have this god-complex.

Again, nobody is fighting any wars for me so that I can talk. Rolling Eyes

I'll leave the rest of the drippy melodrama alone.

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They are all heros out there Lusatian

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Re: Death of a Hero - Pat Tillman

Craven de Kere wrote:

What bullshit! Military-types frequently have this god-complex.

Again, nobody is fighting any wars for me so that I can talk.

I'll leave the rest of the drippy melodrama alone.

And sure enough, they began to talk. Yes, Craven, no one is fighting wars for you. They are fighting for the people who don't have the chance to position themselves as "superior intellectuals". Simple people, I guess you would say, ones that don't know the terms "globalization" or "political correctness". You merely have the right to talk by default.

I have great respect for your learning. You are articulate and studied. But, so were the hippies at Berkeley who spat and threw **** at Vietnam veterans returning without limbs. So, were the activists that held vigils on the bridges of Belgrade when our planes were attempting to stop Soloban Miloslevic. So were those who demonstrated outside our offices last year, calling us "baby-killers" and "rapists".

You can call it melodrama. But that man acted in an attitude of more selfless service in 2 years than you or I have in our entire lives. Would we walk away from millions of dollars to do what we felt is right? No, you and I know, we wouldn't. We worship money and leisure, but that man you ridicule left it to defend America. I can't convince you that he was a hero. But if he doesn't pass the muster then there will never be heros again.

I guess, you'll just keep talking.

I'm sorry man.

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This raises the question, what is a hero? Does fighting for something you believe in qualify you to be a hero? If so, then Osama Bin Laden is a hero too.

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That's a good and fair question, kicky. Not one I have any beginning of an answer for. I've been thinking about a variation of it since about 1973.

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Re: Death of a Hero - Pat Tillman

Lusatian wrote:

And sure enough, they began to talk. Yes, Craven, no one is fighting wars for you. They are fighting for the people who don't have the chance to position themselves as "superior intellectuals". Simple people, I guess you would say, ones that don't know the terms "globalization" or "political correctness". You merely have the right to talk by default.

I have great respect for your learning. You are articulate and studied. But, so were the hippies at Berkeley who spat and threw **** at Vietnam veterans returning without limbs. So, were the activists that held vigils on the bridges of Belgrade when our planes were attempting to stop Soloban Miloslevic. So were those who demonstrated outside our offices last year, calling us "baby-killers" and "rapists".

Dude, this is a lot more baggage than this topic is about and, well I'm gonna have to let you carry the baggage on your onw (except for the hippy hatin' I can sign up for that).

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You can call it melodrama. But that man acted in an attitude of more selfless service in 2 years than you or I have in our entire lives.

This is your opinion, and as you know you and I differe very very greatly on what triggers the hero appelation.

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Would we walk away from millions of dollars to do what we felt is right?

It depends. And central to all of this is the subjective matter of what is right.

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No, you and I know, we wouldn't. We worship money and leisure, but that man you ridicule left it to defend America.

Huh??? Where did I "ridicule" him? You might make a case for me having "ridiculed" your drippy melodrama but I can assure you right now that I don't fault him for it.

It's not his fault that you came here to make false claims about who enables me to "talk".

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I can't convince you that he was a hero. But if he doesn't pass the muster then there will never be heros again.

Still on the melodrama my friend.

Look, we simply have very different standards for heroism. Mine are less focused on morbidity than are yours.

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I guess, you'll just keep talking.

Yes, just as will you and any other opinionated soul. Just as will those who like to make up idiocy about having been responsible for the very fact that I can talk. Rolling Eyes

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I'm sorry man.

I know.

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kickycan wrote:

This raises the question, what is a hero? Does fighting for something you believe in qualify you to be a hero? If so, then Osama Bin Laden is a hero too.

This brought to my mind something which is ascribed to Patton, to the effect that, in war, " . . . the object is to make the other poor son-of-bitch die for his country."

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The post is, of course, amateur journalism. I don't believe even the administration wants us to believe that the troops were sent to Afghanistan to avenge those who lost their lives in the downed flights (let along the unfortunately unmentioned 2 - 3M lives lost in the Twin Towers). They were sent there to rout out the nests of terrorists, capture or kill Bin Laden and punish the Taliban for supporting them by ousting them from power. I can buy anyone who wanted to be on the front lines as a hero whether he lost his life or not. However, he's one of many and because of his celebrity is singled out. He's not more important than any of the other heros and especially not for turning down any amount of money. We've become too mercenary and materialistic in this country that we've forgotten the real values of life.

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BTW, he and his brother who are still serving were both nominated for the Arthur Ashe Award for Courage.

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That was such a cool story here in Phoenix when Pat Tillman gave up all that money to go join the military. The Cardinals tried to talk him out of it, but his mind was made up. And after he made the decision, he wouldn't talk to any reporters. I guess he just thought he had become an ordinary citizen, and he didn't want to be any kind of a celebrity for doing something anyone could have done.

They've been interviewing some of the people on the Cardinals team who worked with him, and they're all saying that he was just a truly nice guy, a man of honor and conviction who knew what was right and sacrificed everything to go out and do it. I didn't know him, and I don't follow the Cardinals, but I actually got a little choked up when I heard the news, and that doesn't happen often.

I don't think he died for the flag - I've always thought saying that was going overboard. Whether he died for freedom of speech is debatable. Certainly he was fighting Al Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan, and if those guys aren't taken out, they could come over here and blow up the building where you are, removing your freedom of speech. I think it's more accurate to say that he died for freedom. He died to keep the Afghan people free and to keep the rest of the world free from terrorism.

Of course other soldiers have been killed in Afghanistan and in Iraq. I'm sure each one of them has a story that should be heard. Many of those stories are probably not deemed newsworthy for one reason or another. But this story is much different, because Pat was a celebrity, and because he gave up so much to go and serve his country.

kickycan wrote:

This raises the question, what is a hero? Does fighting for something you believe in qualify you to be a hero? If so, then Osama Bin Laden is a hero too.

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he·ro n. pl. he·roes

2. A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life: soldiers and nurses who were heroes in an unpopular war.

Is Osama a hero? He may be to some people, but not to me. I'm sure there were people who admired Pol Pot or Josef Stalin and called them heroes. But I would think that no Americans would consider Osama to be a hero. And we need more heroes these days. In light of all the crime and greed and depravity all around us every day, this fine man needs to be held up as a role model. Was Pat Tillman a hero? Hell yes he was!

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Craven,

First of all, I find it outrageously humorous that you admitted to being one of the "talkers" I was referring too. I mentioned no names but you couldn't resist. Reread what I said. I said that many may call him a "warmonger" and think that they are intellectually superior. Since you immediately leapt to the charactarization I assume you own up to both.
I said:

Quote:

But that man acted in an attitude of more selfless service in 2 years than you or I have in our entire lives.

This is not subjective. Do you know why? Simply because we never did anything life changing out of a sense of duty and a notion of honor. Dude, I know us. We are prime examples of selfishness. I sometimes wonder if duty, honor, selflessness, even register in our psyches.

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Would we walk away from millions of dollars to do what we felt is right?

Craven de Kere wrote:

It depends. And central to all of this is the subjective matter of what is right.

Many crocks of excrement. There is no way you, or I, would abandon a career earning 3.6 million dollars. To even vaguely suggest such a thing is grotesque, as right now your tongue must have torn through your cheek.
Your comment on the "subjective matter of what is right" is a hilarious example of vacillation embodied in "freethinking". If you can't even pin down "something you think is right" you are incredibly anchorless. I said he left a life of fame and money to do what he believed to be right, then I compared it with us doing something similar. If this is subjective then you are saying that you can't comment on the notion as you feel it would be a "subjective matter of what is right". At times you are almost stereotypical. (As I'm sure you think of me).

Craven de Kere wrote:

Look, we simply have very different standards for heroism. Mine are less focused on morbidity than are yours.

Wrong. This is just an example of an area where you attempt to display cold cynicism assuming it makes you seem (and probably feel) more intellectual. I agree, sentimentality is cheap and an underminer of intelligence. However, your intellectualism can at times border on the insipid.
Tarantulas posted the definition of a hero, "A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life." Argue with the dictionary definition as much as you want, it is just going to make you appear begrudging.

Face it Craven, he had a life you and I would dream of, (don't get all caught up in "I've never wanted to be a NFL player"). He joined the Army without using it as a publicity stunt. He served with the Rangers in Afghanistan, then Iraq, and finally was killed while in Afghanistan again.

Sorry Craven, but your last posts, particularly the fact that you are so rabidly against the thought that this man might be a legitimate hero, are making you appear biased and ill-willed.

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Every death is a tragic loss, whether the soldier is an average Joe or a NFL football player. My heartfelt sympathy goes out to his family.

He died fighting the real "War on Terror".

I think his brother should be allowed to return home from Afghanastan. The family has already lost one son, they certainly shouldn't be asked to possibly lose a second.

As much as I love my son and would hate to send him off to war, I would be extremely proud of him if he, instead of taking the money, chose to fight in Afghanastan. Some things in life are more important than money...and avenging 9/11 and those who were responsible for it is one of them.

May he rest in peace. [/b]

*I also posted this response on gus's thread about Pat Tillman.

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kickycan wrote:

This raises the question, what is a hero? Does fighting for something you believe in qualify you to be a hero? If so, then Osama Bin Laden is a hero too.

Yes it does. Especially, depending on how you do it. You would be surprised but soldiers have ethics. I assure you that Patrick Tillman would not have killed innocent civilians if he could help it. Osama Bin Laden comprehensively and intentionally targets them.

Do I think Bin Laden is a hero? Yes, I actually do. He is a hero to millions of Islamic fundamentalists and their supporters. Hamas and their followers worship him. Hezbollah and Co think he is a hero. Millions of everyday citizens in Iran, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, Indonesia and the rest of the Islamic world think he is a hero.

You needn't aline yourself with a faction or cause to admit that one of their most prominent is a hero. But, admitting that he may be considered a hero is far from giving an inch when it comes to opposing him. I would slaughter a thousand noncombatants if it meant that I could ultimately kill that "hero". But, this is because I don't pretend to have conscience that makes me have to stop and debate his hero status. (That and because I'm morally skewered and hopeless. I'm saving the efforts of the horrified mass crowd of pacifists).

I chose a side in today's war. You may not have, (very common state of affairs in todays "enlightened"). You may think a hero can only be doing something YOU think is right. I don't think that is true. Heros sacrifice everything to do what each individually think is right. That leaves you to choose which "hero" is closest to yourself.
Are you praying to Allah that Bin Laden escapes and lives to kill more Americans?
If you are not, then I guess Tillman would be closer to your version of hero. Yes?

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Thank you Doglover. That's the kind of response I hoped for.

I merely mentioned the money as I feel it crystalizes a perception of the sacrifice. Yes, many of us are sent to Afghanistan without money or fanfare, but there are some who like to accuse us average joe's of being self-serving. They say and think things like "Oh, he just joined for the college money." "He grew up in such a trashy neighborhood what else could he do?"
I was trying to call attention to at least one who joined not for money or lack of other skill. Tillman joined directly after 9/11 because he felt that he should participate in the defense of America.

May he and all others who died rest in peace.

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Lusatian wrote:

Craven,

First of all, I find it outrageously humorous that you admitted to being one of the "talkers" I was referring too. I mentioned no names but you couldn't resist.

Yes you did not use my name but you used the pronoun "you".

See here:

Lusatian wrote:

I guess, you'll just keep talking.

In English, the pronoun "you" when addressing me will almost always reference me thusly removing the need to address me by name.

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Reread what I said. I said that many may call him a "warmonger" and think that they are intellectually superior. Since you immediately leapt to the charactarization I assume you own up to both.
I said:

Assumption is apparently your fancy, which does not bode well for you in debate.

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This is not subjective. Do you know why? Simply because we never did anything life changing out of a sense of duty and a notion of honor. Dude, I know us. We are prime examples of selfishness. I sometimes wonder if duty, honor, selflessness, even register in our psyches.

<runs around the room screaming "get oooouuuutt of my head!">

Speak for yourself. You know precious little about me based on this statement.

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Quote:
Would we walk away from millions of dollars to do what we felt is right?

Craven de Kere wrote:
It depends. And central to all of this is the subjective matter of what is right.

Many crocks of excrement. There is no way you, or I, would abandon a career earning 3.6 million dollars. To even vaguely suggest such a thing is grotesque, as right now your tongue must have torn through your cheek.

Again, speak for yourself. Do not purport to speak for me as you are wrong.

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Your comment on the "subjective matter of what is right" is a hilarious example of vacillation embodied in "freethinking".

No, it is a good example of the fect that your premise is predicated on acceptance of what you think is right.

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If you can't even pin down "something you think is right" you are incredibly anchorless.

I never said I could not pin down something I think is right. I said that what is and is not right is subjective and individuals will differ on it.

Therefore some will think that Osama's "sacrifice" of his mony for what he believes in is heroic while others will think it dastardly, for example.

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I said he left a life of fame and money to do what he believed to be right, then I compared it with us doing something similar. If this is subjective then you are saying that you can't comment on the notion as you feel it would be a "subjective matter of what is right".

You are making little sense here. I never said I can't comment on the notion. I said that "what's right" is subjective and a matter of opinion.

As such you might think he is heroically doing what's "right" while another might think he's lamentably doing what's "stupid".

I am in neither extreme.

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At times you are almost stereotypical. (As I'm sure you think of me).

At the moment you are not stereotypical by my estimation but are demonstrating reading incomprehension.

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Craven de Kere wrote:
Look, we simply have very different standards for heroism. Mine are less focused on morbidity than are yours.

Wrong. This is just an example of an area where you attempt to display cold cynicism assuming it makes you seem (and probably feel) more intellectual.

How is that not a different standrd for heroism? You've simply characterized it negatively but the difference remains.

Lusatian, you are wrong. There is, indeed, a vast different between what makes us invoke heroism.

Your weak ad hominem about why you think I am less moved by such things says nothing of the fact that there is a difference.

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I agree, sentimentality is cheap and an underminer of intelligence.

Address this to the person you are agreeing with then. Close down the straw man factory as I have said or implied no such thing.

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However, your intellectualism can at times border on the insipid.

This is true. But at the moment I'm not the one railing at the specter of "intellectualism" and creating straw men due to reading incomprehension.

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Tarantulas posted the definition of a hero, "A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life." Argue with the dictionary definition as much as you want, it is just going to make you appear begrudging.

Now you are moving to the fallacy of equivocation Lusatian. But because you do not understand the implications of that logical fallacy we'll skip past it.

By that definition the 9/11 hijackers are all heroes. "Argue with the dictionary definition as much as you want, it is just going to make you appear begrudging."

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Face it Craven, he had a life you and I would dream of, (don't get all caught up in "I've never wanted to be a NFL player").

Face it Lusatian, with all the speaking for me you attempt one could make a case that you are, in your heart of hearts, yearning to be me.

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He joined the Army without using it as a publicity stunt. He served with the Rangers in Afghanistan, then Iraq, and finally was killed while in Afghanistan again.

I see nobility in this, but simply aren't as moved as you are. Something you should come to grips with before you feed this notion that you live in my head.

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Sorry Craven, but your last posts, particularly the fact that you are so rabidly against the thought that this man might be a legitimate hero, are making you appear biased and ill-willed.

Sorry Lusatian, the fact that I am not "rabidly against the thought that this man might be a legitimate hero" simply shows that we are separate individuals who, despite what you may think, think very differently. And it merely illustrates that your penchant for remote psycho-analysis has been, while comedic, a failure.

I'm not "rabidly" against the notion that this man is not a hero. I'm simply less prone to invoke heroism than are you. And you, in turn, prone to getting pissed about it.

We had this discussion about Jessica Lynch already. Beneath the issue of whether or not an individual is a hero we simply differ on the concept of hero altogether.

Your taste is more cinematic while mine more quotidian in this regard.

e.g. putting up with you throughout my childhood makes me a damn hero.

The following quote (that I learned from borrowing your copy of Catcher in the Rye) sums up our philosophical differences on this matter. While it makes a value judgement about the two feel free to ignore that opinion and note the underlying conflict of positions:

The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. - Wilhelm Stekel

You may disagree with the value-laden judgement in the quote but those are the differences, and quite frankly it's nothing to get so worked up over.

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It seems Lusatian is older. Is he?

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Nope, just closer to your political position.

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Craven de Kere wrote:

Nope, just closer to your political position.

Geee Craven....Lusatian didn't deserved that. Yeah, his post was bit pathetic, and, after all, he IS closer to his political position, but still...

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No, just seems like many of the conversations I have had with my older brother...the tone and what not. Though I do agree with him. Lusatian I mean.

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Death of a Hero - Pat Tillman

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