0
   

Shall we grovel?

 
 
Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 12:03 pm
Shall we talk about John Kerry and the United Nations now?
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 12:06 pm
OK, you lead.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 12:12 pm
I believe that a turn over of control to the UN will result in an even bigger mess than what is there now. Kerry has every intention of doing so.
0 Replies
 
Jer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 12:15 pm
McG,

Quote:
I believe that a turn over of control to the UN will result in an even bigger mess than what is there now. Kerry has every intention of doing so.


Why do you believe that it would be a bigger mess? What do you think would happen?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 12:19 pm
I believe that the central administration would end up caving to outside pressures and terrorist demands. I believe that language barriers between troops and commanders could lead to devastating results as well as procedural changes and routing issues as well as logistaical failures. I believe that the current command structure knows what the big picture is and a hand over of control will essentially be starting back on square one.

Quid Pro Quo...
0 Replies
 
Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 12:31 pm
The whole country seems to blowing up right now, but I guess it could be worse. And I'm sure it will be as the days go by....
0 Replies
 
infowarrior
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 01:13 pm
Speaking of the UN, why is Bush calling for a UN role in post-war Iraq after acting unilaterally?

I thought Bush (if the neocon media was correct) is this strikingly independant leader who doesn't need the UN or allies?

Whoops! Laughing
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 01:16 pm
infowarrior wrote:
Speaking of the UN, why is Bush calling for a UN role in post-war Iraq after acting unilaterally?

I thought Bush (if the neocon media was correct) is this strikingly independant leader who doesn't need the UN or allies?

Whoops! Laughing


What is your intention in this post?

What is it that you wish to discuss or to be discussed as a result of this post?
0 Replies
 
Jer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 01:19 pm
McG,

Looking at the state of things in Iraq at the moment, I don't necessarily believe that the central administration is fully aware, or at least not fully in control, of the big picture.

I just saw the Woodward interview on 60 minutes last night and regardless of whether everything that was said was 100% on the money, it is very apparent that there was/is a lack of communication between some of the qualified key players in the administration.

I see the US as having isolated themselves from the rest of the world by the manner in which the war was started. There have been a number of re-positions of the reasons for going to war and a big portion of the world population questions the US's motives for the war. Regardless of whether or not the US went to war for good reasons or bad reasons, there is no doubt that many people question the reasons.

That being said, I think it is definitely in the US's best interest to make amends with the UN. It will be a tough job to make amends with the UN, as many in the world community will likely not be happy being handed the mess that is Iraq. In giving the problem to the UN and participating in, rather than dictating the solution, the US will be able to reposition themselves as having "good intentions" (ie. stopping the dying, freedom to iraqis, global harmony).

This would remove any credibility from the following arguments:

-the US invaded Iraq to gain control of the world's oil supply.
-the US wants a big military presence in the heart of the middle east.
-the US wants to convert muslims to christianity.

...there are hundreds of possible "self-interest" motive scenarios...


Quote:
I believe that the central administration would end up caving to outside pressures and terrorist demands.


Are you referring to the current US central administration here or a central administration at the UN?

Are you talking about other countries when you say "outside pressures"?

Why do you believe that the UN is more likely to cave to terrorist demands?

Quote:
I believe that language barriers between troops and commanders could lead to devastating results as well as procedural changes and routing issues as well as logistaical failures.


There may be some communication problems with a multi-national force, but I'm willing to bet that most of the higher-ups in the military of most countries are conversant in English. So when plans are made in one language, they will then be able to be translated and passed down the chain of command.

Currently there are a number of private security forces fighting in Iraq, do you think that the private security forces and the US are necessarily on the same page? Is it possible that the US could be blamed for private security's brutality?

Isn't the current force in Iraq multi-national? Wouldn't the language issue be the same if it were a UN force or a US led multinational force as is currently the case?

Quote:
I believe that the current command structure knows what the big picture is and a hand over of control will essentially be starting back on square one.


Involving a number of perspectives in the "big picture" will likely result in a better understanding of the "big picture" than if the only people analyzing it are from one group.

Companies generally don't thrive if everyone just agrees with everything the leader says, differing points of view generally lead to a better understanding, than one voice's point of view.

If the US goals are currently "good ones" (ie. in the world's best interest) then a handover shouldn't be starting at square one, as the goals would likely be shared by many in the world community. If there is a problem with the current goals, it is in the world's best interest to rethink and define objectives that work best for the world - not only the US.

A few briefings of a multi-national force would like be what is needed to get them up to speed, as I'm sure that most countries leaders and intelligence people are currently following everything fairly closely.

By no means do I consider myself an expert on any of this. Just a young guy who wants peace in the world as opposed to war. I think that the US is a great country that has contributed so much to the world community, it's a pity to risk throwing all that good away by being too proud to work with the world. I welcome all comments about anything here, as I'm just trying to figure it out like the rest of you.

Cheers.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 01:27 pm
That's a very well reasoned post, stranger.
0 Replies
 
Jer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 02:00 pm
one more thought...

If the US were to hand over control to the UN, then the world would be paying for this project, as opposed to only the US taxpayers. Wouldn't that be more appropriate?
0 Replies
 
Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 02:03 pm
infowarrior wrote:
Speaking of the UN, why is Bush calling for a UN role in post-war Iraq after acting unilaterally?

I thought Bush (if the neocon media was correct) is this strikingly independant leader who doesn't need the UN or allies?

The US did not act unilaterally in Iraq. It acted as a member of a Coalition of countries. Right now there are 49 countries in the Coalition.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 02:07 pm
Tarantulas wrote:
Right now there are 49 countries in the Coalition.


Sure :wink:
0 Replies
 
Jer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 02:07 pm
Tar,

Wouldn't it be closer to reality to say that it led a coalition of the coerced?
0 Replies
 
infowarrior
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 02:12 pm
Right now there are 49 countries in the Coalition.

49? Was this before or after Spain, Honduras, Nicaragua, Poland, and Uzbekistan pulled out? :wink:
0 Replies
 
Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 02:13 pm
Jer wrote:
Tar,

Wouldn't it be closer to reality to say that it led a coalition of the coerced?

No, that would be an inaccurate statement.
0 Replies
 
infowarrior
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 02:19 pm
jer,

The way it works is as follows.

When a nation invades and occcupies another nation, the invading nation assumes the debt of the invaded nation.

That means, you and me.

The UN means zippo here. In any event, do you want the UN making foreign policy decisions for the USA?

I don't.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 02:23 pm
nfowarrior said
Quote:
The UN means zippo here. In any event, do you want the UN making foreign policy decisions for the USA?

I don't.


A Canadian or a Belgian or a German might word that rhetorical question somewhat differently, no?
0 Replies
 
Deecups36
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 03:21 pm
How did you get to 49? Did you count your fingers and toes? :wink:
0 Replies
 
Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 03:27 pm
Research.
0 Replies
 
 

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