America has lost the war in Iraq.

I'll definitely be loading up on both Cav!

Setanta: As always I'm fascinated by your knowledge and feel ill equipped to argue with you. The best I can manage at this time is a feeble "I hope you're wrong."

Agree
"if we succeed we will have proven to the entire ME that there is a better way and when people learn what true freedom is, they'll desire it. We've seen how hard these people will fight for what they believe in. It's time we show them something worth fighting for."

I agree that an actual Representative Republic of Iraq would be a positive situation for the world. In my view a US model would not work there. Perhaps a Parliamentary system would. I also strongly feel that the Shi'ites, Kurds and Sunnis won't be real happy with 14 Military bases on their soil. If I believed that the Bush Admin. was sincere about a "democracy" in Iraq where the Iraqis has real political and economic control, I would support the effort. Unfortunately, I don't believe it and I feel that the Iraqis that are homegrown power brokers don't believe it either.

Examples of already failed efforts due to US interference of Iraqis attempting to assume local control will be posted soon.

Nothing feeble about that--i hope that i'm wrong, as well. I fear that i am not.

I agree with you Set. There were some higher motives, such as the removal of probably the worst enemy of Israel. And setting up Iraq as a pro westerm Muslim democracy as an example (just how naive that was is now apparant...Bush knew nothing about Iraq apart from o.. and never even thought to consult us Brits, arch imperialists, who even invented the modern state of Iraq for ***** sake!).

But the fact is

a Peak Oil production is here, or just around the corner
b Demand for oil is set to rise (China)
c Iraq has lots of oil AND
d Is right in the middle of where most of the worlds oil comes from
e AND offers a convenient pipeline route from land locked Caspian/Caucasus oil fields to the Persian Gulf.

It is my view that America is securing and using all oil supplies around the world first before having to fall back on the oil nearer home. It makes a lot of sense. The oil is running out, but the world's most profligate consumer will have secure supplies right to the end. The long term solution is the hydrogen economy from carbon neutral sources. But making sure America retains a firm grip on whatever oil it can NOW means the transition can be relatively gradual and painless.

Anyway that's the plan. Whether or not the other 95% of the population will allow you to get away with it is another matter.

US has lost the war
US Troops are going to make Faluja another Warsaw Ghetto. The US Troops are moving in on Najav. The US may win these battles but they have lost the war.

I may vote for Ralph Nader. However, nothing that has happened in the last three years except the destruction of the WTC and the tragic deaths that have occurred there would lead one to the extreme position taken by Mr. BiPolarbear. I do not know who he refers to when he mentions--"lying profiteering dicks who trade with the lives and flesh of others for gain" and I can not guess how these people are connected with the topic at the beginning of Mr. BiPolarbear's sentence---"Bush inc. is playing to those fears..."
I wonder if Mr. BiPolarbear could bring some evidence to bear to show he is not just ruminating.
Do Polarbears ruminate?

Hello italgato.

Incompetent American leadership displayed in places like Fallujah and Najaf is leading us to disaster.

We have given America more than enough. We owe America nothing, all debts have been repaid with interest. They now owe us.

Its time for Britain to look after our own interests in the Middle East, which have so clearly diverged from an American administration in the grip of a cabal of Zionists and death wish Christians.

From Britain's point of view, this war was entirely optional. And its time now to opt out.

Blair
Mr.. Blair is stuck. If he pulls the Brits out it will look like he is disloyal. It will look like he doesn't believe in the mission that the Lord wants freedom lovin' countries to complete. If no WMDs are found he could be on trial for a war crime. No way will he ever withdraw troops! It is rather strange that the US is usually only mentioned in regards to Iraq when the UK is the primary accomplice.

BTW whatever happend to those troops that were charged with beating Iraqis to death?

This discussion...
Listen, I'm Croatian, I'll tell you anything you wanna know.

We have won the war of removing Saddam Hussien but we have not won the war of making Iraq a democratic society by force.

Even if there are elections in some parts of Iraq and by hook and crook someone is named a leader. He/She will be leader of only parts of Iraq.

Meanwhile deaths and killings will still be going on that over shadow the elections.

But the spin of that will be, "there are always those that don't love freedom" or "I prefer to be an optimist rather than a doomer and gloomer and I say that Iraq has won freedom today with elections inspite of the nay sayers and insurgents."

The next day or the very same day, US will be going into another city of a "pocket of resistance" and so on it goes.

I don't see an end in sight myself, but then I am a just a downer I guess who just hates bush and will say anything that will make him seem bad.

What is really depressing is that I don't see how Bush can be stoped by anyone.