10
   

Was Robert E. Lee guilty of treason?

 
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 03:26 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Beside the slavery question there was the fact that the two sections of the nation had less and less in common as time pass.

One was becoming an industry superpower with a population base on large scale European immigration and the south economics was base on labor intend agriculture.

Tariff laws and such that would benefit one section of the nation would harm the other.

In fact South Caroline threaten to secede from the union under the Jackson administration in 1822 over tariff laws.

As I already stated it not that simple and to get a good understanding of the reasons for the civil war you need to do research that is far more then what you can get by a few website postings.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 05:05 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
I didn't read the whole thing just the last two pages so I don't know whether this obvious point wasn't already covered.
Lincoln's second Inaugural Address included the conciliatory terms of reuniting the nation. It wasn't seen as "Putting down" a rebellion by him.

HAd the Crown managed to put down our Revolution, of course it would have treated us like we were part of an insurrection. However, the goal of Lincoln was to reunite the Union and the Confederacy . YA cant do that with retribution and seeking to punish the actors. Even as it was, the Reconstruction was a fuckin mess, in many cases , felonious .
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 05:10 pm
Quote:
Lustig Andrei wrote: The slave states said, in effect, if slavery is to become illegal in the United States, then we no longer wish to be a part of the United States

Thanks, that seems clear enough.
Just a couple of follow-up questions-
Was slavery the number one main reason that made the South decide to break away?
And why didn't the North simply say "Okay if they want to break away, let them, it's none of our business"
farmerman
 
  5  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 06:31 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Most of the states that weve been able to track in their declarations of Secession , have stated that the "institution of slavery" was the primary reason. All others were subservient having to do with the financial disadvantage these states would be at should slavery be abolished.

It all wound down to slavery. Economics, states rights, "ways of life" all were CODE WORDS for slvery. This isn't much debated by scholars anymore (except for the very conservative). Even the late Shelby Foote who was a big proponent of the "lost CAuse ", never denied the fact that slavery made the South.

Theres a huge series of lengthy posts on another thread that was started by SNOOD a couple years ago. It was entitled "THE CONFEDERACY WAS ABOUT SLAVERY"
Lustig Andrei
 
  3  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 06:44 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:



Just a couple of follow-up questions-
Was slavery the number one main reason that made the South decide to break away?
And why didn't the North simply say "Okay if they want to break away, let them, it's none of our business"


(1) There are at least two other threads on this forum dealing with precisely that question. But farmerman's right -- the fear of the abolition of slavery overrode all other issues. The other issues could have been worked out through normal processes.

(2) For Lincoln, as for many others involved in national politics, the preservation of the Union was the paramount concern, superseding even their opposition to slavery. Lincoln said in an often-quoted letter to Horace Greeley,editor and publisher of the New York Tribune that if he could preserve the Union without freeing a single slave, he would do so. And possibly the most quoted Lincoln speech is his Gettysburg address at the dedication of the cemetary for those slain at the battle of Gettysburg. These are two opening sentences:

Quote:
Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.
Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure.


For Lincoln, that's what the war was about -- a test of whether the United States could survive as one naton.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 06:59 pm
I've already explained this to you once, Romeo, so try to pay attention this time. Leaving aside the constitutional basis for overcoming the South, after they had made war on the United States, the preservation of the union was the paramount motivation for Mr. Lincoln and for Northerners. Although this seems not to sink in with you, people in the North at that time understood that their nation did not exist in a vacuum and that there were many powerful nations which would have delighted in a weakening of the union. By 1862, in under a year, Mr. Lincoln had assembled an army of one and half million men. The government were spending two million dollars a day--an enormous sum at a time when a skilled laborer was paid a dollar a day. The United States Navy was the largest navy in the world, and no other navy was prepared to challenge them. When an American frigate stopped the Royal Mail Ship Trent and took two Confederate envoys off the ship, Palmerston howled, and Lincoln returned the envoys, but he would not apologize, and the Royal Navy made no attempt to interfere with the U.S. Navy. When the American sloop of war Kersarge blasted CSS Alabama to kindling off the coast of France, thousands turned out to watch the fight, but neither the Royal Navy nor the French navy attempted to interfere. No nation in Europe could have raised and maintained an army that large for three years. Napoleon III knew that. After he organized an invasion of Mexico with French and Belgian troops, and the vaunted French army was defeated the Mexican Army of the Reform on May 5, 1862, he was obliged to pump troops and money into the venture. With the war not even over, Grant sent 30,000 troops to Texas to the banks of the Rio Grande. That was not lost on Napoleon III, who withdrew the Franco-Belgian army. The poor Austrian archduke who had been made emperor was executed by the Mexicans shortly thereafter.

The United States had become a world power by then. Other times and stingy congresses would reduce her military, but no European power was prepared to challenge the United States, as long as they were united. Leaving the Confederate states alone would have destroyed the authority of the government, and the triumph of sectionalism would have cause both the United States and Confederate States to slowly disintegrate. Both sides understood that. When the western counties of Virginia seceded from the state to remain in the union, Confederate troops were sent to retake the territory. They failed. When the eastern counties of Tennessee refused to join the confederacy, Richmond sent troops to take Knoxville. They failed, even after four years of trying to stamp out the Tennessee unionist. Both governments knew what time it was.

Apparently, you don't.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 07:03 pm
Snap, MA.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 08:10 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
It all wound down to slavery.


First of all there was not at that time any real likelihood that slavery would be outlaw in the south and the only issue was limiting slavery spread to the new states.

A number of border states with slavery did not go with the south but remain with the north.

Slavery was surely a major factor but it was not all about slavery.

footnote I always feel that it was unjust that the slave states that did remain loyal to the Federal government did not get reimbursed for their free slaves.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 08:23 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
That was not lost on Napoleon III, who withdrew the Franco-Belgian army. The poor Austrian archduke who had been made emperor was executed by the Mexicans shortly thereafter.


The south in the middle of the civil war suggested a join north/south military expedition into Mexico to removed the French troops.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 09:07 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Lustig Andrei wrote:
I think you're being a little too harsh on ol' Robert E., Set. It was quite common at the time to feel that one's first obligation was to his State. The whole concept of the United States as a Federation, somehow superior to the individual State, had never been a comfortable one with people in either section of the country. (New Hampshire was, historically, the first state to threaten secession; at the time this seemed a perfectly reasonable choice.)

Lee stayed loyal to the Union long after the Carolinas and Alabama and Mississippi etc,. had already announced they were no longer members of the United States In fact, he ran into some hostility in Texas, where he was stationed at the time, when he refused to doff his Federal uniform and peacefully turn his post over to the Texas rbels. (Incidentally, he was a Colonel or Lt. Col. in the US Army at the time [too lazy to look it up now] and throughout his service to the Confederacy never wore anything but a Colonel's insignia o his uniform. That had been his Federal rank. It's a partial explanation, at least, of why he referred to other Federal officers by their peacetime ranks.)

He was offered command of the Army of the Potomac by President Lincoln long before McClellan was even considered for the post. Eery indication is that he was seriously considering accepting the offer when his native state of Virginia finally seceded. Lee felt he had no choice, no options. He was, in his own mind, first of all a Virginian.

There was nothing unusual about this sort of sentiment. Before the War, it was common to use the expression "the United States are ...[etc.]" It wasn't til after the War that that expression changed to "the United States is..." Back in the 1850s and 1860s very few people thought of the USA as one country, singular. Don't frget that prior to the adoption of the Constitution, the country had been run under the Articles of Confederation.

I think it is a measure of 20th Century sentiment -- foreign to the thought of the 19th Century -- to brand Robert E. Lee a "traitor."
AGREED. That was a valid and historically accurate analysis of the situation.

The issue of whether any Confederate officer who 'd been a citizen
of the USA was a traitor for fighting on the Confederate side
depends on whether the Southern States had successfully seceded from the USA,
which, in an effort to avoid loss of territory, created the fiction
that it was impossible to withdraw from the Union.

That was never the deal. That was not the understanding when the States joined up.
The Federalists had not advertized the proposed Constitution to be a HOPELESS TRAP.

Thay simply exercised their 1Oth Amendment right to leave, as we had left the English Empire.
As someone described it a few days ago: it was the 2nd American Revolution.
To believe that Lee was a traitor, one must believe that might,
military brutality, makes right.





David




0 Replies
 
Lustig Andrei
 
  4  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 09:16 pm
I hate it when OmSigDAVID agrees with something I wrote. I instinctively feel I must have made a mistake and said something wrong.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 09:30 pm

FOR CLARITY:
I did not mean to imply that we had a 1Oth Amendment right
to leave the English Empire.





David
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 09:37 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
I did not mean to imply that we had a 1Oth Amendment right
to leave the English Empire.


According to the Declaration of independent any people have an inherent right to do away with any form of government that does not met their needs.

Quote:
that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 09:49 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
I did not mean to imply that we had a 1Oth Amendment right
to leave the English Empire.


According to the Declaration of independent any people have an inherent right to do away with any form of government that does not met their needs.

Quote:
that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Yes, but that was not a 1Oth Amendment right.
The 1Oth Amendment was enacted on Dec. 15th, 1791,
whereas we declared our Independence from England on the 4th of July of 1776.





David
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 10:15 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Yes, but that was not a 1Oth Amendment right.
The 1Oth Amendment was enacted on Dec. 15th, 1791,
whereas we declared our Independence from England on the 4th of July of 1776.


True however the Declaration of Independent was the moral justification for the overthrowing of any government that no longer meet a population needs by the US founding fathers.

Love that some low life down voted my posting of the Declaration.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 10:28 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
Love that some low life down voted my posting of the Declaration.
I get down voted just because its me. I expect it. I don t mind.
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jan, 2014 09:04 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
I get down voted just because its me. I expect it. I don t mind.

I find that downright silly...reminds me of kids who scribble out the faces of other students in the yearbook
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jan, 2014 10:31 am
@panzade,
Quote:
I get down voted just because its me. I expect it. I don t mind.
panzade wrote:
I find that downright silly...reminds me of kids
who scribble out the faces of other students in the yearbook
I was not aware of that practice, but I 'm no expert qua yearbooks.
Its a fact of human nature that people like and dislike others
of their choice. Thay can and shud approach or avoid people of their choice.
As I said: that is nature. When its against me, I don t mind.
Each and every person is sovereign and autonomous qua what he likes or dislikes.
( I don t take it personally, but rather deem it their rejection
of my ideals of Individualism and personal freedom -- rejection of authoritarianism. )

I 'm reminded of when the girl whom I loved n admired above all others
rejected my friendship (after first going out of her way to socially attract me).
I felt very sad, but I certainly recognized and respected her right to do so.
I 'd robustly and energetically defend ANYONE's right
to avoid people (like me) whose company thay wish to avoid.
That is a basic and fundamental right. I defend the Ignore button.





David
panzade
 
  2  
Reply Sun 26 Jan, 2014 10:40 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Its a fact of human nature that people like and dislike others
of their choice.

How they display their fondness is a measure of their maturity...just sayin
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jan, 2014 11:21 am
@panzade,
Quote:
Its a fact of human nature that people like and dislike others
of their choice.
panzade wrote:
How they display their fondness is a measure of their maturity...just sayin
Its more fun to be voted down in A2K
than to be rejected by your first love.





David
0 Replies
 
 

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