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Does finite sin deserve infinite punishment?

 
 
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 12:21 pm
Many religions claim their loving gods will punish sinners after death in an everlasting hell. Given Solomon's explanation at Ecclesiastes 9:5 that the dead are not conscious, how could that be possible?
 
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dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 12:56 pm
@neologist,
Does seem contradictory Neo doesn't it
It is remarkable that Solomon found it necessary to assure us
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 12:58 pm
@dalehileman,
The philosophy of the immortal soul goes as far back as Babel.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 06:14 pm
@neologist,
most theoretical physics has been redacting the concept of"Infinity" from their theories, why doesn't religion?
A grand Theory of Everything religious can bring all cults together with a concept of doing finite penance for everything evil.
That way you all can claim that your God is a God of "Love" rather than retribution, pain, and ultimate humiliation.

Why is it that Gods can do anything that they preach against in their Creations?
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 06:39 pm
@neologist,
In my experience, practitioners of organized religions--and that includes the JWs--are likely not to be conscious.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 07:23 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
In my experience, practitioners of organized religions--and that includes the JWs--are likely not to be conscious.
Just woke from my nap and this is what I get. Sheesh!
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 07:24 pm
@neologist,
Had you been conscious, it might not have slipped past you.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 07:26 pm
@Setanta,
You are not only clever but sneaky, my friend.
0 Replies
 
Calamity Dal
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 08:21 pm
@neologist,
In some cases the teaching is that we await a resurrection when a god will raise you from your peaceful sleep in death to torment you for eternity ever after. The god that does that is a sick bastard
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 09:37 pm
@Calamity Dal,
Calamity Dal wrote:
In some cases the teaching is that we await a resurrection when a god will raise you from your peaceful sleep in death to torment you for eternity ever after. The god that does that is a sick bastard
I know of someone who says that.
0 Replies
 
Zarathustra
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 10:12 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
most theoretical physics has been redacting the concept of"Infinity" from their theories


So theoretical physicsts are still spending about three years of a graduate student's time teaching them renormalization theory for what...nostalgia?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jan, 2014 12:37 am
@farmerman,
I used finite and infinite only to call attention to the absurdity of eternal punishment.
0 Replies
 
glitterbag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jan, 2014 01:06 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

In my experience, practitioners of organized religions--and that includes the JWs--are likely not to be conscious.


So all righty then, can someone tell me who the JWs are????
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jan, 2014 01:21 am
@glitterbag,
Witnesses, I assume.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jan, 2014 06:06 am
@glitterbag,
Jehovah's Witnesses
0 Replies
 
BeHereNow
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jan, 2014 04:25 am
@neologist,
You do not seem to understand that there are various religions, each with their own belief structure, even atheists are not monolithic in their lack of belief in any religion, and what that entails.

I can not tell how deep your ignorance runs, so excuse me for stating what may be obvious to the informed, and new information to the ignorant.

The book of Solomon is Old Testament, so has special meaning for only Judeo-Christian religions, and particularly Judaism. Christians have adopted Old Testament teachings as background for their religion, but put very different meanings on the writings their Saviour studied while walking the earth.
Information is not the same to all observers.
Information entails subjective interpretation.

It is true that Jesus was a Jew, and it is true that many teachings of the various sects of Christianity seem to ignore this fact, still, it should go without saying that Christians do not view much of the Old Testament the same as Jews. - DUH!

If we want to discuss the teachings of Solomon, we would be ignorant to not do so in the light of Jewish beliefs and teachings.
On the point of heaven and hell, of the fruits of sin, Jews and Christians do not agree.
If you are Jewish, reading Solomon is fine, if you are Christian, you will do better with Paul. Just the way things are.

The teachings of Solomon are not inconsistent with Judaism.

Maybe this will help:
"We do believe in a type of Hell, but not the one found in cartoons and joke books. Hell is not a punishment in the conventional sense; it is, in fact, the expression of a great kindness.
The Jewish mystics described a spiritual place called “Gehinnom.” This is usually translated as “Hell,” but a better translation would be “the Supernal Washing Machine.” Because that’s exactly how it works. The way our soul is cleansed in Gehinnom is similar to the way our clothes are cleansed in a washing machine.
Put yourself in your socks’ shoes, so to speak. If you were to be thrown into boiling hot water and flung around for half an hour, you might start to feel that someone doesn’t like you. However, the fact is that it is only after going through a wash cycle that the socks can be worn again."

If you want to find fault with Christian teaching being inconsistent with Judaism - Hello! - Christians are waiting for the Second Coming of the savior, Jews are waiting for the First Coming, but I realize you probably did not know that.

Hope this helps.

And as a footnote, I do need to add that a Christian is offered eternal Bliss (hardly something to be dreaded), for simply asking for it.
A Christian is expected to be Sinful, but hell is not required, or expected, to be in their Eternal future.

Does sin deserve infinite Bliss? - that would have been a more relevant question to pose - if you understood the Christian perspective.
But then, you don't, you only think you do, and that is a definition of ignorance.

Smileyrius
 
  2  
Reply Sun 19 Jan, 2014 01:47 pm
@BeHereNow,
Welcome to. Able2know be, I think if you stuck around, you would see that neo has a better grasp on Christianity than you think
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jan, 2014 03:39 pm
@BeHereNow,
BeHereNow wrote:
You do not seem to understand that there are various religions, each with their own belief structure, even atheists are not monolithic in their lack of belief in any religion, and what that entails.

I can not tell how deep your ignorance runs, so excuse me for stating what may be obvious to the informed, and new information to the ignorant.
I can hardly wait. I'm out of breath. Go on, please.
BeHereNow wrote:
The book of Solomon is Old Testament, so has special meaning for only Judeo-Christian religions, and particularly Judaism. Christians have adopted Old Testament teachings as background for their religion, but put very different meanings on the writings their Saviour studied while walking the earth.
Noted.
BeHereNow wrote:
Information is not the same to all observers.
You would need to explain that, otherwise it is merely a statement from your own authority.
BeHereNow wrote:
Information entails subjective interpretation
While it is true that much of the scriptures rely on allegory, that is not the same as subjectivity.
BeHereNow wrote:
It is true that Jesus was a Jew, and it is true that many teachings of the various sects of Christianity seem to ignore this fact, still, it should go without saying that Christians do not view much of the Old Testament the same as Jews. - DUH!
Ore else, they would be Christian, right? Oh! Wait! DOH!
BeHereNow wrote:
If we want to discuss the teachings of Solomon, we would be ignorant to not do so in the light of Jewish beliefs and teachings.
If you are speaking of current Jewish teachings, I would disagree. If we want to arrive at the truth, we should consider his writings in accord with what they meant to the Jews of his time, and their intent towards posterity.
BeHereNow wrote:
On the point of heaven and hell, of the fruits of sin, Jews and Christians do not agree.
Noted above.
BeHereNow wrote:
If you are Jewish, reading Solomon is fine, if you are Christian, you will do better with Paul. Just the way things are.
Actually, Paul agreed with Solomon. See 2 Timothy 3:16:
BeHereNow wrote:
The teachings of Solomon are not inconsistent with Judaism.
Speakling of those understood in the first century, yes. Things have changed.
BeHereNow wrote:
Maybe this will help:
"We do believe in a type of Hell, but not the one found in cartoons and joke books. Hell is not a punishment in the conventional sense; it is, in fact, the expression of a great kindness.
The Jewish mystics described a spiritual place called “Gehinnom.” This is usually translated as “Hell,” but a better translation would be “the Supernal Washing Machine.” Because that’s exactly how it works. The way our soul is cleansed in Gehinnom is similar to the way our clothes are cleansed in a washing machine.
Put yourself in your socks’ shoes, so to speak. If you were to be thrown into boiling hot water and flung around for half an hour, you might start to feel that someone doesn’t like you. However, the fact is that it is only after going through a wash cycle that the socks can be worn again."
Actually, Gehinnon refers to the valley of Hinnom, referred to in the Greek as Gehenna. This is the place outside of Jerusalem where, at one time, Baal worshiping Israelites sacrificed their children to idols. In Jesus' time, it was a garbage dump where sulfurous fires burned constantly and where besides garbage, the bodies of dead animals and executed criminals were dumped. But, since, even dead criminals are no longer conscious, the burning represented, not eternal punishment, but complete destruction.
BeHereNow wrote:
If you want to find fault with Christian teaching being inconsistent with Judaism - Hello! - Christians are waiting for the Second Coming of the savior, Jews are waiting for the First Coming, but I realize you probably did not know that.
Well, you do confuse nominal christians with true Christians, a forgivable misunderstanding. Jesus' second 'coming' or parousia (presence) was to take place at the end of the gentile times. Jews missed the first. Everyone else seems to have missed the import of the second. But that's another story.
BeHereNow wrote:
Hope this helps.
Indeed.
BeHereNow wrote:
And as a footnote, I do need to add that a Christian is offered eternal Bliss (hardly something to be dreaded), for simply asking for it.
Who gave you that idea?
BeHereNow wrote:
A Christian is expected to be Sinful, but hell is not required, or expected, to be in their Eternal future.
The choice available to all is life vs. death
BeHereNow wrote:
Does sin deserve infinite Bliss? - that would have been a more relevant question to pose - if you understood the Christian perspective.
But then, you don't, you only think you do, and that is a definition of ignorance.
Until you can explain from the scriptures how your suggested question has merit, the pointy hat belongs to you.
0 Replies
 
anonymously99
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jan, 2014 04:32 pm
@neologist,
Does finite sin deserve infinite punishment?

Did you ever answer your own question?
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jan, 2014 05:35 pm
Quote:
Neologist said: Many religions claim their loving gods will punish sinners after death in an everlasting hell. Given Solomon's explanation at Ecclesiastes 9:5 that the dead are not conscious, how could that be possible?

Jesus spoke many times of the pain of hell, so who are we to believe, the Son of God or Solomon?
PS- just for the record some scholars say Ecc wasn't written by Solomon anyway, but by Koheleth the preacher.
 

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