4
   

School of Assassins. USA.

 
 
Brandon9000
 
  0  
Reply Thu 2 Jan, 2014 06:22 pm
@JTT,
Still waiting for your citation about a US school training people to kill non-combatants as the primary, intended targets. Haven't heard it from Monterey Jack either.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Thu 2 Jan, 2014 07:13 pm
@Brandon9000,
Have you at least looked up the declassified training manuals?

They're available online.

I think it's worth the time to at least consider reading them.

I've done quite a bit of reading about School of the Americas and WHINSEC over the past 20+ years. I recommend looking at the training manuals if you do nothing else.

KUBARK-CIA

I think the most obviously questionable material is from training provided up til about 1976.
Brandon9000
 
  0  
Reply Thu 2 Jan, 2014 08:31 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

Have you at least looked up the declassified training manuals?...

If it's the truth, this is easy. Provide one single link that demonstrates that a US school taught people how to attack non-combatants as the primary, intended target. Why doesn't someone just end the argument by doing so?
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Thu 2 Jan, 2014 09:00 pm
@Brandon9000,
I can give you the link to the training manuals - but as they're in pdf format, I can't cut and paste anything from it. Maybe someone else can.

There are certainly links to testimony about them - but really, I think if you're interested you should be following them up.

Perhaps my approach to life is different than yours. If I don't believe something, I look it up. If I'm curious about something, I look it up.

I'm not interested in other people's research - I like to research all the angles on things myself so I can make my own decisions.

I also don't make my decisions about whether something happened or didn't happen until I've done the research/reading myself. I'm a terrier about this sort of thing.
Brandon9000
 
  0  
Reply Thu 2 Jan, 2014 09:29 pm
@ehBeth,
If someone makes a claim I consider unlikely, it is his responsibility, not mine, to back it up and it's just that simple.
MontereyJack
 
  2  
Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2014 12:43 am
bookmark
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  5  
Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2014 01:10 am
@Brandon9000,
You're looking at it backwards, Brandon. SOA and WHINSEC trained the military, security forces, and police forces of a number of the worst Central and South American governments--dictators, autocratic, extreme right wing, in up-to-date tactics of interrogation and "counter insurgency" without any concern for who those gtovernments thought worthy of interrogation or whether or not those non-democratic governments had any legitimacy. And those goverments we supported through training, in practice thought their "enemies" were nuns, priests, teachers, journalists, peasants, the poor, union organizers, and social activists, and yes, children, like the many poor children killed by police death squads in the favela shanty towns of Brazil.

from Wikipedia: (emphasis added)
Quote:
The Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation (WHINSEC), formerly known as[1][2] the US Army School of the Americas, is a United States Department of Defense Institute located at Fort Benning near Columbus, Georgia, that provides military training to government personnel of Latin American countries.

The school was founded in 1946 and from 1961 was assigned the specific goal of teaching "anti-communist counterinsurgency training," a role which it would fulfill for the rest of the Cold War.[3] In this period, it educated several Latin American dictators, generations of their military and, during the 1980s, included the uses of torture in its curriculum.[4][5] In 2000/2001, the institute was renamed to WHINSEC.[6][7]:233



The US Army School of the Americas was founded in 1946. From 1961 (during the Kennedy administration), the School was assigned the specific Cold War goal of teaching "anti-communist" counterinsurgency training to military personnel of Latin American countries.[3] At the time and in those places, "communists" was, in the words of anthropologist Lesley Gill, "... an enormously elastic category that could accommodate almost any critic of the status quo."[7]:10
During this period, Colombia supplied the largest number of students from any client country.[7]:17 As the Cold War drew to a close around 1990, United States foreign policy shifted focus from "anti-communism" to the War on Drugs, with narcoguerillas replacing "communists".[7]:10 This term was later replaced by "the more ominous sounding 'terrorist'".[7]:10

In 1999, the School of the Americas website said in its FAQ section, "Many of the [School′s] critics supported Marxism -- Liberation Theology -- in Latin America -- which was defeated with the assistance of the U.S. Army."[3]

WHINSEC[edit]By 2000 the School of the Americas was under increasing criticism in the United States for training students who later participated in undemocratic governments and committed human rights abuses. In 2000 Congress, through the FY01 National Defense Act, withdrew the Secretary of the Army's authority to operate USARSA.[8]

The next year, WHINSEC was founded as a successor institute. U.S. Army Maj. Joseph Blair, a former director of instruction at the school, said in 2002 that "there are no substantive changes besides the name. [...] They teach the identical courses that I taught and changed the course names and use the same manuals."[1]

But in 2013 researcher Ruth Blakeley concluded after interviews with WHINSEC personnel and anti-SOA/WHINSEC protesters that "there was considerable transparency [...] established after the transition from SOA to WHINSEC" and that "a much more rigorous human rights training program was in place than in any other US military institution".[9]

Participation[edit]In 2004, Venezuela ceased all training of its soldiers at WHINSEC[10] after a long period of chilling relations between the United States and Venezuela. On March 28, 2006, the government of Argentina, headed by President Néstor Kirchner, decided to stop sending soldiers to train at WHINSEC, and the government of Uruguay affirmed that it would continue its current policy of not sending soldiers to WHINSEC.[11][12]

In 2007, Óscar Arias, president of Costa Rica, decided to stop sending Costa Rican police to the WHINSEC, although he later reneged, saying the training would be beneficial for counter-narcotics operations. Costa Rica has no military but has sent some 2,600 police officers to the school.[13] Bolivian President Evo Morales formally announced on February 18, 2008, that he would not send Bolivian military or police officers to WHINSEC.[14] In 2012, President Rafael Correa announced that Ecuador would withdraw all their troops from the military school at Ft. Benning, citing links to human rights violations.[15]

In 2005 a bill to abolish the institute, with 134 cosponsors, was introduced to the House Armed Services Committee.[16] In June 2007, the McGovern/Lewis Amendment to shut off funding for the Institute failed by six votes.[17] This effort to close the Institute was endorsed by the nonpartisan Council on Hemispheric Affairs, which described the Institute as a "black eye" for America.[18]



Criticism of WHINSEC[edit]Human rights violations by graduates[edit]WHINSEC has been criticized for human rights violations performed by former students of its predecessor, the School of the Americas.[1][29][30]

According to the Center for International Policy, "The School of the Americas had been questioned for years, as it trained many military personnel before and during the years of the 'national security doctrine' – the dirty war years in the Southern Cone and the civil war years in Central America – in which the armed forces within several Latin American countries ruled or had disproportionate government influence and committed serious human rights violations in those countries."[citation needed] SOA and WHINSEC graduates continue to surface in news reports regarding both current human rights cases and new reports.

Defenders argue that today the curriculum includes human rights,[31] but according to Human Rights Watch, "training alone, even when it includes human rights instruction, does not prevent human rights abuses."[29]

On the lessons taught at the School, former SoA direction of instruction Maj. Joseph Blair said, "The doctrine that was taught was that if you want information you use physical abuse, you use false imprisonment, you use threats to family members, you use virtually any method necessary to get what you want... [including torture] and killing. If there's someone you don't want you kill them. If you can't get the information you want, if you can't get that person to shut up or to stop what they're doing you simply assassinate them, and you assassinate them with one of your death squads."[32]

"Sources at the [US Army School of the Americas] say that when Honduran and Colombian soldiers go through the urban-combat exercise with blanks in their weapons, half the time the village priest (played by a US Army chaplain) is killed or roughed up," Newsweek reported.[33]

On September 20, 1996, the Pentagon was forced to release training manuals that were used at the US Army School of the Americas and distributed to thousands of military officers from eleven South and Central American countries, including Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, and Panama, where the US military was heavily involved in counterinsurgency. These manuals advocated targeting civilians, extrajudicial executions, torture, false imprisonment, and extortion.[34][35][36]
In "Teaching Human Rights Violations", a Washington Post editorial commented on its report, "US instructed Latins on Executions, Torture", "The US Army advocacy of terror methods reaches far beyond the question of whether or not the US Army School of the Americas ought to be shut down {"Army Instructed Latins on Executions, Torture", front page, Sept. 21}. It has to do with US complicity in human rights crimes."[5]

In "School of the Dictators", the editors of The New York Times commented, "Americans can now read for themselves some of the noxious lessons the United States Army taught to thousands of Latin American military and police officers at the School of the Americas during the 1980s. A training manual recently released by the Pentagon recommended interrogation techniques like torture, execution, blackmail and arresting the relatives of those being questioned. Such practices, which some of the school's graduates enthusiastically applied once they returned home, violate basic human rights and the Army's own rules of procedure. They also defy the professed goals of American foreign policy and foreign military training programs."[4]WHINSEC has said "that no school should be held accountable for the actions of its graduates."[31]


I think that pretty thoroughly makes the case. We were in bed with some thoroughly rotten people, who thought nothing of killing wholesale their own citizens.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2014 02:03 am
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:
We were in bed with some thoroughly rotten people, who thought nothing of killing wholesale their own citizens.

Yes, because we were desperately trying to fend off the far greater evil of Soviet domination.

But the fact that we were allies of convenience with some very unsavory people does not make us responsible for the misdeeds of those very unsavory people.
MontereyJack
 
  3  
Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2014 09:22 am
We trained them, we knew what they were doing, we gave them the military hardware to kill people. And the people they were killing weren't communists. That's a red herring. They were anyone who opposed the corrupt oligarchies in power. They were the people fighting for democracy. For example, the Sandanistas in Nicaragua were particular targets for the Reagan cabal. Since then, they have been democratically elected for office, including the presidency, iin Nicaragua, and it has never gone communist. Efrain Rios Montt, the dictator in Guatemala, carried out genocide against the indigenous Maya, who never were communist and are not today, they weren';t involved in the whole cold war thing,but they had been despised for centuries by the ruling elite, which used our tacit support to murder the Maya wholesale. Rios Montt, incidentally, was recently convicted, long after the fact, for his murderous rampages.

No, oralloy, your defense doesn't wash.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2014 09:36 am
@Brandon9000,
I would not be satisfied with myself if I looked at the world like that.

But that is clearly your choice.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2014 09:37 am
@Brandon9000,
actually
to be honest

that just seems intellectually lazy to me

but that's one woman's opinion
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2014 10:35 am
@oralloy,
Oralloy: Yes ...

You've always said "No, the USA doesn't target civilians". Now you say "yes the USA does target civilians".

You might want to do some rethinking.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2014 10:49 am
@oralloy,
Oralloy: But the fact that we were allies of convenience with some very unsavory people does not make us responsible for the misdeeds of those very unsavory people.

===================

That is of course patently false. The USA always knew what was going on. It supported these wholesale slaughter with CIA advisors right in the thick of things.

Examples abound:

==============
Ghosts of a Genocide - The CIA, Suharto and Terrorist Culture

http://www.converge.org.nz/abc/prsp25.htm

...

During the period 1965-69, and especially during 1965-66, a series of mass murders took place in Indonesia which led to the institution in power of President Suharto and the opening up of the country to Western capitalism. Possibly more than a million people were slaughtered. In the documentary film on globalisation by John Pilger, "The New Rulers of the World" (2001 - screened on TV1, 10/10/01), there are scenes of some of the relatives of the victims of the massacres secretly exhuming the bones of their loved ones. As Pilger notes, evidence has increasingly come to light of the murderous role that the US and British governments performed both in initiating and in helping perpetrate the killings, and in the creation of the long reign of terror that ensued. The full story amounts to a remarkable and chilling record of capitalist genocide, cover-up, and subsequent foundation of a model which was then widely applied elsewhere in the Third World to eliminate the enemies of the West and ensure future profits. To a quite considerable extent, the new rulers of the world built capitalist success on the Indonesian genocide, and the platform it served for globalising Indonesia and the rest of the planet.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2014 10:52 am
@ehBeth,
Brandon is hardly the only one, Beth.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2014 06:46 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

actually
to be honest

that just seems intellectually lazy to me

but that's one woman's opinion

So you assert the right make any crazy claim, provide no evidence to support the truth of it, and call me lazy if I don't accept responsibility for investigating. I don't think so.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2014 06:51 pm
@Brandon9000,
As delusional as anything I have ever witnessed.

I hope you are in no way responsible for anything to do with children, Brandon.
Brandon9000
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2014 06:58 pm
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:

You're looking at it backwards, Brandon. SOA and WHINSEC trained the military, security forces, and ...

There is only one issue we were discussion, whether the school taught students to target non-combatants as the primary, intended targets of attacks, not whether they advocated torture, which might be an interesting discussion, but is not part of this one. Almost the only relevant portion of your quotations is this:

"On September 20, 1996, the Pentagon was forced to release training manuals that were used at the US Army School of the Americas and ... These manuals advocated targeting civilians, extrajudicial executions, torture, false imprisonment, and extortion.[34][35][36]"

I looked quickly at those three references and didn't see any references to advocating attacks upon non-combatants. I did see something about infiltrating civilian organizations, but that is pretty much standard police procedure. I can see why you would believe what you do based on this quotation, but I would prefer to see the claim in a more fundamental document and, as I said, in quickly looking through the three citations given, I saw nothing about instructing the students to attack non-combatants.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2014 07:01 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
As delusional as anything I have ever witnessed.

I hope you are in no way responsible for anything to do with children, Brandon.

Insults are not arguments. I note that you don't specify what is delusional or why it's delusional. Your arguments seem to primarily consist of name calling. Please specify what the delusion you're referring to is - that people who make claims should back them up?
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2014 07:30 pm
@Brandon9000,
Read MJ's responses to you, Brandon.
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jan, 2014 11:52 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
Read MJ's responses to you, Brandon.

Are you ever capable of personally defending your assertions? You claimed I am as delusional as anything you've ever witnessed. Okay, what delusion exactly do you claim I have? It appears to me that you're not capable of defending any of your statements. Don't look to other people to bail you out, just answer.
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
GAFFNEY: Whose side is Obama on? - Discussion by gungasnake
 
Copyright © 2022 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.09 seconds on 01/20/2022 at 06:11:32