Why we shouldn't believe in evolution.

@Brandon9000,

Quote:

then the Bible should be rejected at once as lacking a scrap of evidence to support any of it.

Which is cast iron evidence that you have not "read" the Bible.

@spendius,

spendius wrote:

Quote:
then the Bible should be rejected at once as lacking a scrap of evidence to support any of it.

Which is cast iron evidence that you have not "read" the Bible.

I note with interest that you didn't give an example. You think there is pretty good evidence or proof for the events in the Bible? Give me some strong evidence that Moses spoke with God on Mount Sinai.

0 Replies

@JohnJonesCardiff,

JohnJonesCardiff wrote:

Evolutionists have a hard time with this. Forms die out. That's a fact that must be entered into the debate. Species become extinct and others take their place. Death happens. Death must happen, and does happen. There's no "evolving" into something else.

Careers and personalities evolve. Species and individuals do not.
Death trumps evolution. Period.

see new post about traits

So, where do the new species come from? They just show up fully developed one day? Suddenly the first human baby is born to a mother of some other species and after that they just keep being born? All of the fossils show species that just showed up fully formed and eventually died out to be succeeded by other species that suddenly appeared?

Why do antibiotics eventually stop being effective in your scheme of the universe? Why are people taller today than in the past? Why does the average measured IQ go up over time? You have been claiming that evolution is false, but when directly challenged were unable to say what the term means.

1 Reply

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/270369.php

0 Replies

@JohnJonesCardiff,

Oh great you play with semantics to make a flawed straw man argument.

Quote:

Careers and personalities evolve. Species and individuals do not.

Evolve definitionally means 'change', so right away the second part of your statement is false. Dogs are a single species but the change within that species is visible.

Evolution isn't a force with a direction, it's a word that describes a complex intermingling of processes from the genetic to the environmental and ecological.

Your line of reasoning is not dissimilar to arguing we shouldn't believe in autumn based on one leaf. Well we don't. Your argument is specious. You still haven't answered where these 'new' species come from that take the place of those that die.

0 Replies

@JohnJonesCardiff,

JohnJonesCardiff wrote:

Careers and personalities evolve. Species and individuals do not.

In a very limited sense of the terminology this is correct. Biological evolution is about Populations, not Individuals. "Species" is an arbitrary division given to populations which are sufficiently different from each other. But you are being pedantic in pointing this out. We already know all this, it's just a semantic game whereby you willfully misinterpret what is meant when we say that one species evolves into another. Are you just intent on being pedantic, or is there a more interesting point to what you are saying?

0 Replies

@JohnJonesCardiff,

I believe as a race we are not sufficiently knowledgeable to understand such life processes. Our knowledge is in it's infancy. Evolution is simply change. Some life forms evolve, others don't seem so and some seem to bypass death itself and some become extinct. There are creatures who haven't changed in millions of years: Nautilus (half billion years), Lamprey (360 million years), horseshoe crab(445 million years). There are some we thought were extinct like the Coelacanth (360Million years) but then found out they weren't in 1938. And then there's the Turritopsis Dohrnii( Benjamin Button jellyfish ) this immortal jellyfish continually reverts to it's first stage of life bypassing death. Incredible advanced skills don't you think?! ...the need to pursue stem cell research comes to mind.

0 Replies

@JohnJonesCardiff,

Quote:

Forms don't evolve - they die and others take their place. That's the first obvious truth that is dropped in evolution debates

I think I can summarize this guys "worldview" about evolution.
THE CARDIFF PRINCIPLE
"AHEM"

"IF YOUR PARENTS WERE CHILDLESS< CHANCES ARE THAT YOU WILL BE TOO"

0 Replies

@JohnJonesCardiff,

Quote:

Species become extinct and others take their place. Death happens.

Wow, you are so close. When Extinction happens to a bunch of similar cousin species and only one "makes it' and the others are left in the fossil record, THAT A SUCCESSFUL "FISH COUSIN SPECIES" CARRIES ON AND MAKES IT AND HE/SHE delivers hundreds of eggs that yield a bunch of offspring, many of which slightly vary from each other. SOme make it , some don't. But, say, the water temperature begins to change to colder (due to some climatic change). Then a slightly larger terminal form may be better adapted (because of some simple thing like body mass and surface area). That species lays its own eggs and there is a small visible trait (for a bigger fish ). This gets fixed into the population just as do human traits (like a family's pronounced jaw or nose0 or one families "Blond hair" . That's what evolution does. It takes a trait that could be mere variability and then makes some further changes over the years and generations.
AS LONG AS ANIMALS HAVE SEX TO REPRODUCE, the fact of volution will be demonstrable .

DO you have your father or mothers chin John?

0 Replies

The most entertaining absurdity here is that either he alleges that all species that now exist and those that have gone extinct at one time occupied the planet; OR that his boy god waves his noodly appendage to produce new species as needed. He won't step off that cliff, though. He won't bring up god. His style is the "he said/she said" rhetorical method. He makes some idiot statement, and then awaits the response, after which he will dispute those, but will not offer any alternative explanations. Failing all else, he'll just repeat his initial statements.

1 Reply

@Setanta,

That's how dogmatic training for the Christian shock troops works.
1Repeat your mantra or credo
2Demonize anything else
3Repeat nos 1 and 2 above indefinitely
4NEVER listen to anything else

1 Reply

@farmerman,

That's how Pascal did it fm.

"God bless America". "The Land of the Free".

Does what you said apply to those and other similar mantras?

Can an orderly society do without such training?

1 Reply

@spendius,

are you lonely this morning spendi?
Get a puppy.

1 Reply

@farmerman,

Pathetic!!!! In 7 no trumps.

0 Replies

@JohnJonesCardiff,

Are you confusing evolvability with adaptation? Adaptive traits have a downside. Adaptive traits characterize ability to resist damage but don't always result in becoming survival traits. Here are examples of survival traits:
1. Atlantic Wolfish make their own anti- freeze
2.Spotted Salamander is solar powered
3. Tripod fish have built in chairs

Evolvability is a survival trait. Adaptation can be individualized . Evolution refers to the cumulative changes in a population or species through time.

0 Replies

@Brandon9000,

Brandon9000 wrote:

JohnJonesCardiff wrote:
Evolutionists have a hard time with this. Forms die out. That's a fact that must be entered into the debate. Species become extinct and others take their place. Death happens. Death must happen, and does happen. There's no "evolving" into something else.

Careers and personalities evolve. Species and individuals do not.
Death trumps evolution. Period.

see new post about traits

So, where do the new species come from? They just show up fully developed one day? Suddenly the first human baby is born to a mother of some other species and after that they just keep being born? All of the fossils show species that just showed up fully formed and eventually died out to be succeeded by other species that suddenly appeared?

Why do antibiotics eventually stop being effective in your scheme of the universe? Why are people taller today than in the past? Why does the average measured IQ go up over time? You have been claiming that evolution is false, but when directly challenged were unable to say what the term means.

Quite clearly it cannot be the species or the individual that evolves - death gets in the way, and breaks the continuity between different life-forms, continuity that is essential to the meaning of "evolve".

We need to find a new substrate that we can say "evolves". That substrate cannot be life-forms. We might like to look at the possibility that it is chemical form that evolves, for there is no death in chemical forms. Another candidate is "structure". However, structures can't be said to "evolve" for there is no target structure; structures can only be said to "change".

Now this conceptual investigation MUST be carried out to our satisfaction BEFORE we begin any investigation into the fossil record or biochemistry. Unfortunately, we don't do that. And that is the substance of my complaint. Finally, perhaps people can now see why I am not interested in religious issues in evolution.

4 Replies

@JohnJonesCardiff,

Concepts evolve with proof..

0 Replies

@JohnJonesCardiff,

JohnJonesCardiff wrote:

We need to find a new substrate that we can say "evolves". That substrate cannot be life-forms.

That's why we usually say that Populations evolve. Or if you are interested in physical structures, then we can say that DNA evolves. But you will have to accept reproduction (with variation) as part of the continuity of the structure.

Here is one of the textbook definitions of Biological Evolution:

- Helena Curtis and N. Sue Barnes, Biology, 5th ed. 1989 Worth Publishers, p.974 wrote:

In fact, evolution can be precisely defined as any change in the frequency of alleles within a gene pool from one generation to the next."

1 Reply

@rosborne979,

One of the most respected evolutionary biologists has defined biological evolution as follows:

- Douglas J. Futuyma in Evolutionary Biology, Sinauer Associates 1986 wrote:

"In the broadest sense, evolution is merely change, and so is all-pervasive; galaxies, languages, and political systems all evolve. Biological evolution ... is change in the properties of populations of organisms that transcend the lifetime of a single individual. The ontogeny of an individual is not considered evolution; individual organisms do not evolve. The changes in populations that are considered evolutionary are those that are inheritable via the genetic material from one generation to the next. Biological evolution may be slight or substantial; it embraces everything from slight changes in the proportion of different alleles within a population (such as those determining blood types) to the successive alterations that led from the earliest protoorganism to snails, bees, giraffes, and dandelions."

1 Reply

@rosborne979,

rosborne979 wrote:

One of the most respected evolutionary biologists has defined biological evolution as follows:

- Douglas J. Futuyma in Evolutionary Biology, Sinauer Associates 1986 wrote:
"In the broadest sense, evolution is merely change, and so is all-pervasive; galaxies, languages, and political systems all evolve. Biological evolution ... is change in the properties of populations of organisms that transcend the lifetime of a single individual. The ontogeny of an individual is not considered evolution; individual organisms do not evolve. The changes in populations that are considered evolutionary are those that are inheritable via the genetic material from one generation to the next. Biological evolution may be slight or substantial; it embraces everything from slight changes in the proportion of different alleles within a population (such as those determining blood types) to the successive alterations that led from the earliest protoorganism to snails, bees, giraffes, and dandelions."

Dwelling on that. Will sleep on it. There is a problem with how populations are identified as populations: circular definitions and tautologies might be involved in that identification..but..... I must let it simmer for a while.

1 Reply

Why we shouldn't believe in evolution.

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know