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New image found on Turin Shroud

 
 
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 11:13 am
A new raison d'etre for Sindonophiles.
Quote:
Scientists Find New Face on Back of Turin Shroud
By Dominique Vidalon

MILAN (Reuters) - Italian scientists have found a matching image of a man's face and possibly his hands on the back of the Turin shroud, believed by many to be the burial cloth of Jesus Christ, one of the researchers said on Thursday.

The discovery that the ghostly image on the back of the linen cloth matches the face that adorns the front is likely to reignite debate over whether the shroud is genuine or a skilful medieval fraud.



"The fact that the image is two-sided makes any forgery difficult," Professor Giulio Fanti of the University of Padua told Reuters.

The findings of Fanti and Roberto Maggiolo, both from the university's department of mechanical engineering, were published this week by a journal of the Institute of Physics in London.

Fanti said the discovery would support those who maintain the cloth is genuine.

The shroud, one of Christianity's most sacred but most disputed relics, is a piece of linen some 4.4 meters (14 feet) long and 1.1 meters (3 feet 7 inches) wide.

It first appeared in France in the 14th century and has been held in the Italian city of Turin since 1578.

For over 600 years the debate has raged over the origin of the image of a tall, bearded man bearing the marks of crucifixion that can be seen on the front of the shroud.

Experts over the years say they have found traces of blood, pollen or soil typical of Jerusalem, where Christians believe Jesus was crucified.

But 15 years ago three separate laboratories said carbon dating indicated the shroud was no older than the 13th or 14th century. Researchers concluded the shroud was a hoax created for the hugely profitable medieval pilgrimage business.

While the front of the shroud has been studied intensively over the years, the back had remained hidden under a piece of Holland cloth which was sewn by nuns to cover up damage caused by a fire.

That protective layer was removed in 2002 for restoration and the back of the cloth was photographed.

The two scientists said they studied these photographs and used mathematical and optical techniques to process the images.

They found that the face that can be seen on the reverse of the shroud matches that of the front.

"We can detect the presence of a nose, eyes, hair, beard and mustache on the back surface that correspond in place, form, position and scale to those of the front," Fanti said.

Speculation has also grown over who created the image. One theory maintains it was the work of Leonardo da Vinci, who pioneered an early photograph technique and put his own face on the shroud.



I see Picknett and Prince's loony theory is getting some airplay, but I do have one question..... does the image look more like James Cavaziel, or Mel Gibson? Very Happy
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Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 1,054 • Replies: 19
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 11:18 am
Any chance it's bleed-through?
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 11:24 am
I don't know. I do know that the image is only on surface fibres, so they would have been in contact. I have always been interested in this relic, so any new news is certainly exciting.
0 Replies
 
doglover
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 11:31 am
Re: New image found on Turin Shroud
hobitbob wrote:


MILAN (Reuters) - Italian scientists have found a matching image of a man's face and possibly his hands on the back of the Turin shroud, believed by many to be the burial cloth of Jesus Christ, one of the researchers said on Thursday.

Experts over the years say they have found traces of blood, pollen or soil typical of Jerusalem, where Christians believe Jesus was crucified.


To me, all this "would be, could be" stuff is like saying that Jesus Christ could have been homosexual, that Judas Iscariot could have been his lover, that the two could have had a lovers' quarrel, and that all the rumors of Jesus Christ and Mary Magdalene are the result of JC having MM as his "beard" (seeming evidence of heterosexuality).

And that red stain...it's probably wine.
:wink:
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Letty
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 11:38 am
Wow!, hobit. That's really interesting. Whatever it is, (Mel Gibson, indeed.) Smile It will be fascinating to follow the story.
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 11:44 am
I think it's actually the shroud of Judas Eatschariots (or is it carrots...). The man did have a reputation for being two-faced.
0 Replies
 
Letty
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 11:54 am
ok, deal with this, then. As I was typing my response, a female voice with a slight British accent came through my speakers saying,"What do you want me to say. Type anything". UhOh Smile
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 12:08 pm
the Shroud, and the semi-associated Renens le Chateau phenomenon were what drew me to medieval studies in the first place, so I will always have a soft spot in my head for them. Very Happy
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 12:20 pm
Can I assume then hobitbob, that you have read 'Hermes Unveiled' by Roy Norvill? I sucked that book up in about two days. I had a similar experience with 'The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross.' Nothing gets me going like a well-argued conspiracy theory. Laughing
0 Replies
 
Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 12:22 pm
Letty wrote:
ok, deal with this, then. As I was typing my response, a female voice with a slight British accent came through my speakers saying,"What do you want me to say. Type anything". UhOh Smile


Sounds spiritual, Letty! I had a similar experience. Fell down on my knees and prayed until I realized there was an animated figure at the top of the screen doing the talking...
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 12:23 pm
Yup. You might want to try "The Head of God," and all of Laurence Gardner's books too. Very Happy
I have to add, though, that I just have not been able to get into the "Davinci Code." I read about ten pages, then begin gagging.
0 Replies
 
Equus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 12:24 pm
People, people, people.

Scientists have conclusively demonstrated a modern source for the Shroud of Turin--

It's Tammy Faye Baker's bedsheet. Her makeup rubbed off.
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 12:26 pm
Good one Equus!

hobitbob, I had a similar gag experience when reading 'The Mayan Prophecies'. As fascinating as the calender was, it was just way too much math for me. Smile
0 Replies
 
Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 12:28 pm
cavfancier wrote:
Can I assume then hobitbob, that you have read 'Hermes Unveiled' by Roy Norvill? I sucked that book up in about two days. I had a similar experience with 'The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross.' Nothing gets me going like a well-argued conspiracy theory. Laughing


My gosh, cav, I read "The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross" decades ago! Is it still in print? Must admit, I was totally convinced at the time, though my grasp on science was a bit shaky in those days...
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 12:29 pm
D'art, I found a copy at a used bookstore. I'm not sure if it's still in print, to be honest.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 12:30 pm
People want oh so much to believe, that they will read something into anything. This was a big deal in Florida a couple of years ago. People were stopping and praying to this glass defect. Rolling Eyes
http://www.visionsofjesuschrist.com/weeping384.htm
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 12:35 pm
Oh, that's funny Phoenix. Laughing

Now, what I am missing from my book collection is Volume I of 'The Hermetic and Alchemical Writings of Paracelsus'. Volume II was a good read, but if someone could FedEx me a copy of Volume I, it would be greatly appreciated.
0 Replies
 
Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 12:43 pm
As a character in DeLillo's "Mao II" observes, "When the Old God goes, they pray to flies and bottletops."
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 08:34 pm
Letty wrote:
ok, deal with this, then. As I was typing my response, a female voice with a slight British accent came through my speakers saying,"What do you want me to say. Type anything". UhOh Smile


Mine does that too!
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 08:41 pm
Another story
Quote:
Wrapped in the shroud
By Steve Tomkins

The discovery of a second face on the Turin Shroud has again divided opinion. Does this mean it is real after all? Or does it mean it's an even better hoax than was previously thought? Some people, and not just the faithful, never stopped believing in the first place.

Easter could not have been better timed this year for publicity purposes.

First, it coincided conveniently with The Passion of the Christ which attracted audiences several million times bigger than the original crucifixion. And now the Turin shroud - the supposed burial cloth of Jesus, ever-wrapped in controversy - has been showing its contentious face again.

The Passion of the Christ: Top Easter box office
A textiles expert working on the restoration of that countenance divine has claimed that the cloth is from the 1st Century.

Though carbon-dating performed in 1988 suggested that the shroud dates from between 1260 and 1390, Mechthild Flury-Lemberg found that the fabric was woven in a three-to-one herringbone pattern, used for high quality cloths in the ancient world.

Speaking in a programme broadcast in the US in Holy Week, she said that she also saw stitching patterns surprisingly similar to material from Masada, the Jewish fortress destroyed in AD 74.

Fake features

Then, within days, Italian scientists announced that they had found a second facial image on the opposite side of the shroud, usually hidden by a large safety patch. They ruled out the possiblity that it was the forger's paint seeping through: it was only on the two outer surfaces of the cloth, not in between.



Turin shroud 'shows second face'
Instead the scientists are now talking about electrical fields and corona discharges. "It is extremely difficult to make a fake with these features," they say. Other scientific investigations have also been undermining the carbon-dating conclusions.

So, having been discredited by its apparently fatal blow from carbon-14, the shroud seems to be coming back from the dead.

For many, these latest developments only confirm what they have believed all along. There is a vast international Turin shroud culture and industry. It has its own ology - sindonology, the study of the shroud. Shroud.com lists 29 centres of sindonological research and information in the US alone. There are international conferences, journals and newsletters in several languages, and you can buy CDs and CD ROMs, books and videos, and framed prints up to life size. The Catholic church has prayers and liturgy for shroud-related worship, and it even has its own feast day, 4 May.

Believers - not all Catholic by any means - point to many features of the mysterious linen that are hard for sceptics to explain:

* Why are the bloody nail prints on the wrists, when all medieval art depicted Jesus nailed to the cross by his hands?
* How did the 12th Century Hungarian "Pray Manuscript" come to depict Jesus being wrapped in the shroud - with authentic herringbone pattern and burn marks - 100 years before carbon-dating says the material originated?
* What would possess a 14th Century forger to design the fabricated face in negative - a fact that only emerged when it was first photographed in 1898?
* Doesn't the evidence for medieval repair of the cloth and sooty deposits from a 1532 fire challenge the carbon-dating?

Shroud enthusiasts come from all walks of life, and all Christian denominations. Those who have written and lectured about its authenticity include professors of archeology, philosophy, history, chemistry, engineering, and surgery, though not sindonology.

It is not surprising to find priests in their midst, but more surprising that believers included the controversial liberal Bishop of Woolwich John Robinson, of Honest To God fame.

Of course there are conspiracy theorists and far-fetched mystics too, but they seem to be outnumbered by scientists. Judging by the three million who queued to see the linen when it was exhibited in 2000, it seems the average shroud fan is simply an ordinary Christian believer.

Religious aid

On the other hand, Roman Catholic authorities themselves remain agnostic about the shroud. "The Church has no specific competence to pronounce on these questions," said Pope John Paul II. "She entrusts to scientists the task of continuing to investigate."

The custodian of the shroud, Cardinal Severino Poletto of Turin, encourages believers to appreciate it as a religious aid rather than a definite historical relic: "It a sign which must help our faith make that journey which leads us to see Christ."

The 14-foot long cloth, as exhibited in Turin in 2000
And even before the carbon-dating, the Catholic Encyclopedia, conservative though it is, argued that the shroud was probably not authentic. It quoted medieval documents that talk of its blood stains still being bright red, though they have since darkened unrecognisably.

It's ironic that the Church's scepticism towards its own sacred laundry is being challenged by scientists, and a Lutheran textile restorer.

The only thing we can be certain about is that it will continue to be shrouded in mystery and to provoke controversy. And as one researcher working on it has pointed out, whatever future investigations reveal, it will always leave plenty of room for faith and doubt: "There's no test for Christness".

Is it (gasp)...eeeeviiillll????
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