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Why do people deny evolution?

 
 
Helloandgoodbye
 
  0  
Reply Mon 15 Apr, 2019 01:32 pm
@brianjakub,
Quote: ‘I think this is showing we are about 4,500 years from the end of the flood. What happened during the flood, and how long the flood actually is the much bigger question that has to be answered.’

Well, it seems Genesis chapter 5 and 11 as well as Luke chapter 3 give a clear historical genealogy of Adam to Christ. (About 4,000 years).
So, when reading through Genesis chapter 6to9 it is a pretty safe to conclude approximately one year for the flood.


Quote: ‘I do believe the entire universe (when it was constructed in its initial perfection) was more like a universe-sized neutron star.
This would make the flood event a universal event...’
John was describing this process in Rev 6:12
I watched as he opened the sixth seal....

It seems you were taking revelation 6:12 out of context. That passage is speaking of the future events, not past events.
https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/revelation/revelation-6/revelation-6-12.html

Quote: ‘.... Is what happened when the perfection of a universe constructed like a neutron star is disrupted....’

It seems The biblical record indicates the laws of physics changed at the time of ‘the fall‘.... when thorns and thistles were going to begin to appear, as well as pain, suffering and death would also begin (The second law of thermodynamics, from Order to disorder)....disrupted well before the time of the flood.

Quote: ‘How long this process took is questionable. The current inflation theory of the Borde-Guth-Vilenkin puts the age of the universe at approximately 14 billion years’

We should be Careful not to insert mans fallible theories/ideas into Gods written word.(because of our finite knowledge)
Just as we can all to easily do with the morality subject too.
In other words, the only reason people/scientists conclude ‘old age’ results from dating techniques is because of the underlying assumptions at play.
Ie. What if we never discovered that tree rings or ice layers could be produced multiple times per year, and always continued to *assume* slow and gradual rings and layers? You see? Our finite knowledge can really lead us down the wrong path, drastically!
Which is why the author of the book of Judges correctly Concluded ( The last verse of the book) that when God goes, anything Goes.
https://biblehub.com/proverbs/3-5.htm
‘ lean not on our own understanding.’

Quote: ‘The atomic clocks (before the inflation of the universal flood event) would have operated in perfection and measured time differently than we do today.’

Again, it seems the atomic clocks started ticking differently when God withdrew his presence (because mankind, now being sinful, cannot be in his Holy/pure presence, just as mankind cannot approach the sun without guaranteed death)

Quote: ‘...which might be why the Earth looks much older to science.’

I got to say, Adam and Eve were only one second old yet were fully formed. Old looking. Created mature.
In other words, science does not speak, the rocks do not speak, they must be interpretated. It is only human interpretation that says the earth and universe as much older. Especially because if we do not have all the facts, like an all knowing God would have, yes?
brianjakub
 
  0  
Reply Mon 15 Apr, 2019 02:14 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
And you call science "magic" yet your "science Book" has fairy tales galore which you question not.


Can you explain Stellar nucleosynthesis and abiogenisis without sounding magical?

Heck, the fact that man has unexplained creative intelligence when no other species does, is evidence that creative intelligence more than likely cannot exist purely by material mean thus supporting dualism. Dualism (if correct) is very hard to explain by purely natural means.

What would be your solution to explain intelligence of any kind if dualism is correct/

As for the biblical fairytales.
Quote:
Flood
Parting the Reed sea
Dead rising
Create a living plnet in under aweek
Humans arising from nothing but mud and ribs
No explanation for where Cain got his wife and where all the people comefrom
LOts wife
Jonah gets barfed up by a big fish
talking snakes


Quote:
Flood:


The flood is a The Big Bang inflation event as postulated by mainstream science and is a transition from a perfect compact universe made only up of neutrons like neutron stars that inflates to the imperfect universe we observe now. In this version of the Big Bang matter existed before the Big Bang.

Quote:
Parting the Red Sea
Flood
Parting the Reed sea
Dead rising
Create a living plnet in under aweek
Humans arising from nothing but mud and ribs:


An omnipotent intelligence could control all the particles in the universe exactly like your intelligence controls the particles in the neurons of your brain just on a larger scale. Both are super natural because they cannot be explained by purely natural means.

Quote:
No explanation for where Cain got his wife and where all the people comefrom:


Cain got his wife the same place Adam did from his rib and then all of Cains descendants (sons of man) had wives like we do today.

All sons of Seth (the sons of God) did not have wives as we have today. They were godlike beings with the feminine and masculine somehow still perfectly unifed as one. That is why their wives are not named in the bible.

Sons of Cain had wives like we do today, and that is why they are named.

According to the fossil record Cain and his offspring appeared in Africa millions of years ago.

Quote:
Jonah gets barfed up by a big fish:


You got me there.

Quote:
talking snakes:

Satan was a spiritual being that spoke to your mind through one's thoughts.

What is your question about Lot's wife?

Helloandgoodbye
 
  0  
Reply Mon 15 Apr, 2019 02:49 pm
@farmerman,
Quote: ‘you call science "magic" yet your "science Book" has fairy tales galore which you question not.’

Flood
Parting the Reed sea
Dead rising
Create a living plnet in under aweek
Humans arising from nothing but mud and ribs
No explanation for where Cain got his wife and where all the people comefrom
LOts wife
Jonah gets barfed up by a big fish
talking snakes

For myself, once I concluded that there is an intelligent designer, and before concluding the designer is the ‘God of Israel’ answers to some of these questions I sought next.

Parting the Red Sea, Jonah and the fish, raising the dead etc.....
Well, imagine the biblical record without such demonstrations of power. Imagine what the sceptics would say then!
I bet it would go something like ‘WHY doesn’t the biblical scriptures contain stuff like this, is your God handicap?!’
Yes? Yep.

From dust we came in from dust we will return. Makes sense. It seems all the elements required are in the soil. Quickly found this link below with a graph or two.
https://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12266
Making Eve out of a rib is quite cool, considering human ribs can regenerate. 😎
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2756968/We-regenerate-Researchers-reveal-ribs-regrow-damaged-say-true-entire-skeleton.html

As far as where Cain got his wife, consider:
1. Genetically perfect originally, Marrying a relative would not have been a problem.
2. If a woman gave birth to a set of twins at birth, and they were separated to live on opposite ends of the earth only to meet up later in life and fall in love, is this incest? Is it a problem psychologically? If they did not know, ya know? No. Likewise with Cain, there would have been no problem marrying his ‘sister.’ For culturally, they would not have even thought about it the Way we do now.
We should be careful to impose a 21st century state of mind on an Ancient way of life.

As for ‘talking snakes’... we have gone over this before, but again, the ‘serpent’ who deceived mankind is the dragon, the devil, the father of lies etc..... that is the ‘serpent.’
https://www.biblehub.com/revelation/20-2.htm
It seems this angelic being uses things we are unfamiliar with to deceive. Adam and eve would not have had much experience with animals just yet. And obviously no one else around To use.
And now, this angelic being uses people to spread misinformation. Ie. evolution
It seems possible that The ‘talking serpent’ (The Hebrew word does not infer snake) was just an illusion, much like evolution. Not much has changed.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Apr, 2019 03:10 pm
@brianjakub,
Quote:
Can you explain Stellar nucleosynthesis
fairly well
Quote:
abiogenisis without sounding magical?
I can do a steady chain of ractions and synthesis starting at CN OH, CO, NH3, H20,H2S and P and winding up at Glycine. Zat good enough for a start?? I dont think anyone has a problem with polymerization of COOH molecules forming cell walls.




Quote:

The flood is a The Big Bang inflation event as postulated by mainstream science and is a transition from a perfect compact universe made only up of neutrons like neutron stars that inflates to the imperfect universe we observe now
whatever yer smokin , QUIT IT!. we dont allow no stoners in any lab with hoods and E spray systems


Quote:

An omnipotent intelligence could control all the particles in the universe exactly like your intelligence controls the particles in the neurons of your brain just on a larger scale
"coulda" WIthout any scintilla of a scientific hypothesis where dow any evidence like that come from besides the brown round.?


Quote:
Cain got his wife the same place Adam did from his rib
references please? Does the Bible even mention anything about Cains wifes family. So Cain married his sister??? wowee

Quote:
According to the fossil record Cain and his offspring appeared in Africa millions of years ago.
It does? Im callin brown round again.

Lots wife was turned into a pillar of salt, in the dead sea are evaporite deposits of various salts none of which are fossils. Jonah was swallowed by a greatbfish who let him out, oh nooo, you mean the fish made jonah dukees
jonah was eaten by a great fish, not a whale. Somehow the fish . I notice you jump back and forth between what you claim is reality and , like the snke, was allegory. Why not just admit the whole thing is allegory and then, at least you and Leadfoot'd be closer on a study plane.

0 Replies
 
brianjakub
 
  0  
Reply Mon 15 Apr, 2019 05:24 pm
@Helloandgoodbye,
Quote:
Well, it seems Genesis chapter 5 and 11 as well as Luke chapter 3 give a clear historical genealogy of Adam to Christ. (About 4,000 years).
So, when reading through Genesis chapter 6to9 it is a pretty safe to conclude approximately one year for the flood.


I don't think the years are measured by atomic clocks and the years before the flood are different than today. Everything after the flood is the same.

more to come
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Apr, 2019 05:31 pm
@brianjakub,
My favorite part of the "flood" story is that the waters rose and all the fish drowned.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Apr, 2019 07:27 am
Quote:
it is a pretty safe to conclude approximately one year for the flood.

Hey, according to the story wasn't it clear that the flood wasn't even six months in duration?

I don't know what to make of the story, but it always amused me that detractors refute it by saying there are no geological signs of it. I own some property that was submerged for almost that long back in 1998. You can see no trace of it today after only 21 years, even the man made structures look untouched. Most Geological signs take geological times to lay down, ignoring big meteorites etc.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Apr, 2019 09:01 am
@Leadfoot,
what youve missed lo these many years that the Creationist/IDers have been spouting about a "Flood" is that NOWHERE in geologic histroy is there any evidence of a single worldwide inundation. This would have shown up with all kind of riverine, palludal, marsh, marin, estuarine reduzate and evaporite deposits all at the SAME identifiabe horizon.
Sorry, no such animal exists, no matter how much you guys bleat for a flood of Genesisian proportions.(let alone be able to quantifyits duration.
You guys have NO IDEA about how any of these claims would even be verified so I dont worry to much that youd find such a horizon.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Apr, 2019 09:07 am
@Leadfoot,
even were a property inundated and then dried out, it leaves signs of same. It would leave a rather thick zone of water lain laminae with plant remains showing in place information of abrasion by force or chemistry. Geologists arent as ignorant as you, we use more natural tracks than does an Indian scout. Even the chixclub bolide, which left god amounts of ash fall, iridium track, with other rare earth elements , as well as deposits from lahar and tidal wave TERMINAE , we still see large areas of the map that were left untouched
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Apr, 2019 09:59 am
@farmerman,
Well I guess if it was a natural flood you would see all the natural signs. But the story is about a purported supernatural event. Hell, the story goes that much of the water came out of the frigg'n ground. You got any experience with supernatural floods?

I put atheists who deny biblical supernatural events in the same camp as Flat Earth debunkers. Why would anyone waste their efforts doing it? It is not a worthy goal for a mind.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Apr, 2019 10:40 am
@Leadfoot,
that is true, However, many of the biblical flood fans try to include the belief as worthy of being included within earth science classes, and since earth science is one of the first programs taught in miiddle school, kids are apt to believe the bullshit.

You often seem to test the waters on both sides of an issue. (like now). I try to be consistant and it has nothing to do re: atheism. I didnt start out that way but evolved toward a naturalistic view after many years of asking for more proof for the bibles stories.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Apr, 2019 10:44 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
You got any experience with supernatural floods?
Im fresh out.
When I was told that stuff like the flood is accepted only on FAITH, then I wonder about the bounds of facts and truth??
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Apr, 2019 03:19 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
I try to be consistant and it has nothing to do re: atheism.

My bad, wrong term. Atheists are a subset of who I meant to say - materialists.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Apr, 2019 03:27 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
You often seem to test the waters on both sides of an issue. (like now).

Only because of your perspective. Same applies to Evolution. It only looks consistent from one perspective. From others, it's like believing in magic.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Apr, 2019 08:11 pm
@Leadfoot,
Sir, that is merely wishful hogswallop on your behalf .
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Apr, 2019 11:11 pm
@Leadfoot,
Yeah, right . . . like believing in your magic sky daddy.
0 Replies
 
Helloandgoodbye
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Apr, 2019 05:35 am
@Leadfoot,
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/Liquefaction.html

https://m.youtube.com/c/BryanNickel_Hydroplate

Something to read, and something to watch.
amazing evidence of a global flood!
My favourite part of Walt Browns book and Theory is the origin of radioactivity and Liquefaction( The origin of layered Strata)

But yes, I believe you are right that the flood lasted around six months, I guess I was referencing the whole cycle. Even after the ark landed, noah stayed put a few months while vegetation grew back.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Apr, 2019 05:45 am
@Leadfoot,
FM is right, you can't have it both ways. You claim to be a light blue touchpaper type of creationist, where everything is designed to work from the off and only needs one thing to set it in motion. That means evolution would all be part of the design.

However, you alternate between sucking up to and disparaging the lego set creationists who worship a senile god who needs to make everything separately, fucks up time and time again and needs to keep updating the system.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Apr, 2019 07:25 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
FM is right, you can't have it both ways. You claim to be a light blue touchpaper type of creationist, where everything is designed to work from the off and only needs one thing to set it in motion. That means evolution would all be part of the design.

I don't even know what a 'light blue touchpaper type of creationist' is. Could we use LBTTC for brevity in the future?

I made no such claim about 'the off' (abiogenesis ?) but I did agree with farmer that we do not have evidence about how much information (or whatever farmer needs to call it) could have been front loaded (or accidentally formed re: farmer). That is just a fact that we both agree on. Because of that, I said I don't know, not the opposite as you stated.

Quote:
However, you alternate between sucking up to and disparaging the lego set creationists who worship a senile god who needs to make everything separately, fucks up time and time again and needs to keep updating the system.

Leaving aside your disparaging terminology, it is true that when it comes to religionist's dogma, I call it like I see it. I do the same with farmer's. Is that a bad thing?
Helloandgoodbye
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 17 Apr, 2019 08:33 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote: ‘ it always amused me that detractors refute it by saying there are no geological signs of it.’

It does seem A big portion of it does boil down to interpretation of things.

Take for example Jehovah’s Witness, who conclude that Jesus is a created being from their interpretations of the evidence in front of them. They claim there is no evidence of The teaching that he is an eternal, uncreated being😳

Atheists conclude that there is not an intelligent designer from their Interpretations of the evidence in front of them.😳

Evolutionists conclude From the evidence in front of them,that in the distant past Fish walked, reptiles turned into birds, And they make a monkey out of mankind. They also conclude the earth and universe are billions of years old of course.😳

People like myself conclude there is an intelligent designer, there was a global flood, and the earth is a few thousand years old. The evidence is overwhelming.

I also have to say from my experience that the core reasons why so many different interpretations boils down to two things.
1. Mankind desires to be like God dictating right from wrong, And rejects/Denys the true God. Fear of being dethroned, so they can live lawlessly.

2. Misinformation. The world is full of it. We can all agree on that I am sure.

Now when did Both the desire to be like God and deception start?

Now, only if we could educate/inform Jehovah’s Witness that The true definition of begetting vs. making.
And if we could educate and inform people who embrace the idea that the earth is billions of years old about the underlying assumptions at play regarding dating techniques.
But even more importantly, if we could change a person‘s heart! So they would not deny the overwhelming evidence, and proper way to interpret the data, and the world around them.
 

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