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Why do people deny evolution?

 
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  0  
Thu 2 Mar, 2017 08:12 am
@Leadfoot,
...mate hey look here...yes I am talking to ya...you don't need much more then to breed dogs in order to have some basic grasp of evolution got it...it just happens nature does it differently.
Plus dont confuse complexity with invalidation. The basic premises of Evolution are unquestionable.
Leadfoot
 
  2  
Thu 2 Mar, 2017 08:14 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
I hear a knee jerking
Fil Albuquerque
 
  0  
Thu 2 Mar, 2017 08:17 am
@Leadfoot,
You problem is not with your ears... Laughing
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Thu 2 Mar, 2017 08:19 am
There is no doubt that evolution occurs. This premise is not in question in any real circles of science. The occasional rogue never has offered up any viable alternatives, as there are none.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Thu 2 Mar, 2017 08:30 am
@edgarblythe,
In this argument you have to specify whether you mean micro or macro evolution. Micro evolution is the only one 'proven' and there is universal agreement on that.
farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 2 Mar, 2017 09:07 am
@Leadfoot,
On what basis do you assert that ? Sounds like youve been spoon fed the Creationist /ID answer for macro evolution.

0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Thu 2 Mar, 2017 09:12 am
@Leadfoot,
Gravity's not proven either. Why not put that to the test?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 2 Mar, 2017 09:23 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:

I'm not familiar with a few things on your list but there are more than enough known valid ones on it that even the orthodox evolution scientists are starting to question all the assumptions in evolution.
ALL of the items on his list have been sufficiently debunked for all but the Creationist denilist mind.
His only new thing is "genetic entropy". I missed his reference to this because (IM SURE) the Creationists have just picked up on Dr Sanford's beliefs.
hes a botanist who, while doing plant genetics, became a Fundamentalist Christian and "bought into" ll the Young Earth Bullshit.He "believes" that the entire earth is about 100K years old. His entire argument is pretty much geology based, in his thinking. A subject that even he admits he has only an amateur's knowledge. Sanford bases his entire hypothesis on an idea by Crow nd Konrashov, that says ALL LIFE IS DOOMED TO EXTINCTION IN A FEW GENERATIONS. We know that is BS from simple observation of long lived adaptees to long existing environments (like the Coelacanth, ahich has been seen as a fossil in the Jurassic).
We know that C&K were dead wrong because selection removes "unfit" genotypes and phenotypes. Keep an eye on polar bears nd Hippos. They will either adapt and evolve, or go extinct due to rapidly changing environments.

We understand how some religions are impediments to SPecial Creation beliefs, and descent from a common ancestor, and "man-apes". But as it stnds, there seems to be no real evidence that supports ID or Creationist thinking.


.
farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 2 Mar, 2017 09:24 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
conventional scientific evolutionists are still not ready to abandon the premise that it's 'all natural', they are just looking for a better narrative, a 'Third Way' as they call it.
So its not evolution you doubt, or nat selection, you believe that its "directed"?
Leadfoot
 
  2  
Thu 2 Mar, 2017 09:39 am
@farmerman,
I'm not sure what hat I want to put on today so I'll let Doug Axe's recent words on the matter speak for me.

He said:

Quote:
Here’s the steel-hard fact they most want to avoid:

The evolutionary explanation of life cannot stand up to NASA-style engineering scrutiny. If you doubt this, please join me in testing it. Hand pick your Darwin sympathizers from the most esteemed places. It doesn’t matter who they are, because all the pomp and prestige of the academic world is powerless to change hard facts. All claims of Darwin having discovered the only scientifically valid explanation of life get torn to tiny bits when you put them in the grinder.

The response to this challenge is sure to be either silence or protest. There won’t be a nerdy evolutionary biologist who marches up to the chalkboard and does the math that saves the theory. The math has been done; the theory undone. Nor will there be a lab test that shows natural selection to be a worker of wonders. We’ve been there. Too many tests to count, and the blind watchmaker never showed up.

The protest will be familiar, organized around the usual defensive themes. Different sciences work differently! — they’ll say. It isn’t reasonable to hold a historical science to engineering standards! — they’ll say. No practicing evolutionary biologist would accept your proposal as valid! — they’ll say.

Let them speak. Then remind them that the difference is simply one of seriousness. When we really need to know that something will work, tested-and-approved certainty has always been the standard. Evolutionists ignore that standard because they can. Storytelling works for them because they’re all telling stories together. Their grand stories are all wrong, but as long as no one is dying in orbit, most people are content to let them carry on.


And yes dammit, he's with the DI. So what.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Thu 2 Mar, 2017 09:44 am
@Leadfoot,
He's not exactly the foremost authority on the subject. He just says what you want to hear.

Quote:
Axe is on the record arguing that problems with evolution are evidence for intelligent design, insofar as if the theory of evolution cannot explain some data it means that there can somehow be no naturalistic explanation at all. In other words, Axe seems to think that if evolution were false, then Intelligent Design would have to be correct — which is, of course, false insofar as Intelligent Design is not a scientific theory to begin with, and is thus not even in the running.

His actual expertise in the fields relevant to assessing evolutionary explanations has also been questioned


http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Douglas_Axe
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Thu 2 Mar, 2017 10:02 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
Axe seems to think that if evolution were false, then Intelligent Design would have to be correct

Well of course. The basic problems of evolution are that chance and natural selection (purely natural causes) cannot explain what we observe. There is too much 'information' content for that to be the case. Intelligence is the only known source of such information.

So what else would he think, given that?

So what is your 'Third Way'? Or do you hang with the classical Darwinists.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Thu 2 Mar, 2017 10:05 am
@Leadfoot,
There's no of course about it, it's lazy thinking by people scared of their Biblical mumbo jumbo being called into question. ID isn't even a scientific theory, it's a religious one.
Leadfoot
 
  2  
Thu 2 Mar, 2017 10:11 am
@izzythepush,
There it goes again.
If you don't have an explanation, start smearing the opposition. Call them religiiiiious, in a sneering tone of voice.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Thu 2 Mar, 2017 10:25 am
@Leadfoot,
I'm not smearing anyone, just calling out false logic. Evolution is huge, going back billions of years, there's bound to be gaps, just because it's not all there doesn't mean it has to be ID.

It would be pretty amazing if everything was there, miraculous in fact.

Why are you so quick to grasp a non scientific theory if your motivation is not religious. An open minded person would just accept the gaps, not extrapolate them into something else.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Thu 2 Mar, 2017 10:28 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:
So what is your 'Third Way'? Or do you hang with the classical Darwinists.


I don't have a third way, I'm not religious, or a scientist or a politician for that matter. This thread discusses all manner of possibilities, if you're interested.

http://forum.forteantimes.com/index.php?threads/creation-versus-evolution.14719/
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  0  
Thu 2 Mar, 2017 10:52 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
I'm not familiar with a few things on your list but there are more than enough known valid ones on it that even the orthodox evolution scientists are starting to question all the assumptions in evolution.


Like I say, the party should have been over when Richard Goldschmidt published the results of the fruit fly experiments in 1940.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  0  
Thu 2 Mar, 2017 10:54 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Somebody who didn't know better could mistake you for somebody who knew what they were talking about....
gungasnake
 
  0  
Thu 2 Mar, 2017 10:55 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
ALL of the items on his list have been sufficiently debunked for all but the Creationist denilist mind.


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
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Thu 2 Mar, 2017 11:03 am
There are religious persons who nevertheless acknowledge evolution. As a great man once wrote, “I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.”
― Galileo Galilei, Letter to the Grand Duchess Christina
 

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