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Why do people deny evolution?

 
 
layman
 
  0  
Fri 17 Apr, 2015 08:13 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
you should spend time with the various words like "axiom" nd "theory". They have precise meanings different than yours.


I should?
Where, exactly, would I "spend this time?"
Where are the REAL meaning given, and who are they explained and given by?
Any person/place that you can cite? Specifically, I mean, not just "go read some books?"
Where did you happen to come across the meanings you gave?
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Fri 17 Apr, 2015 08:20 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Youre dancing very close to "its only a theory"


Once again you show your proclivity for judging statements based on, and only based on, where you think they lead and who you think might say them.

I said:
Quote:
There is a fundamental difference between fact and theory


Do you deny this? Are you saying there is NO fundamental difference? Are you aware of ANY prominent evolutionary theorist who claims that Neo-Darwinism (just one of hundreds of scientific propositions one could choose from) is NOT a theory? If you think you can, could you cite who they are, and where you think they made such a claim?
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Fri 17 Apr, 2015 08:23 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
You use them interchangeably


1. When? Where? Can you show me one sentence, or combination of sentences which you believe demonstrate that I did this?

2. What difference does it make anyway, as far as what we're talking about?
layman
 
  0  
Fri 17 Apr, 2015 09:12 am
@farmerman,
I said:
Quote:
Natural selection is one of the basic axioms of Neo-darwinistic theory. In science (or any other area of theorizing) you can never use deductions drawn from your axioms to prove the axioms themselves. That would merely be "circular" reasoning. An axiom is, and must remain, an unquestioned (and unproven) "starting point" in any theory.


In response, you said:
Quote:
Then you should spend time with the various words like "axiom" nd "theory". They have precise meanings different than yours.


Perhaps you could start your critique by showing how and why this "precise" explanation of an axiom is "wrong," eh?

Quote:
An axiom or postulate is a premise or starting point of reasoning.... The word comes from the Greek axíōma (ἀξίωμα) 'that which is thought worthy or fit' or 'that which commends itself as evident.'[2][3] As used in modern logic, an axiom is simply a premise or starting point for reasoning.[4] Axioms define and delimit the realm of analysis; the truth of an axiom is taken for granted within the particular domain of analysis, and serves as a starting point for deducing and inferring other truths.

A lesson learned by mathematics in the last 150 years is that it is useful to strip the meaning away from the mathematical assertions (axioms, postulates, propositions, theorems) and definitions. One must concede the need for primitive notions, or undefined terms or concepts, in any study. Such abstraction or formalization makes mathematical knowledge more general, capable of multiple different meanings, and therefore useful in multiple contexts. Alessandro Padoa, Mario Pieri, and Giuseppe Peano were pioneers in this movement.

Axioms play a key role not only in mathematics, but also in other sciences, notably in theoretical physics. In particular, the monumental work of Isaac Newton is essentially based on Euclid's axioms, augmented by a postulate on the non-relation of spacetime and the physics taking place in it at any moment.

In 1905, Newton's axioms were replaced by those of Albert Einstein's special relativity, and later on by those of general relativity.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom

There is nothing about the axioms on which Einstein's special and general relativity are based that is "self-evident," is there?

I was talking about MODERN usage and understanding of the term. I do agree that, with respect to ancient times, your "self-evident" criterion was used.

Quote:
"As classically conceived, an axiom is a premise so evident as to be accepted as true without controversy....Among the ancient Greek philosophers an axiom was a claim which could be seen to be true without any need for proof....The root meaning of the word 'postulate' is to 'demand'; for instance, Euclid demands of us that we agree that some things can be done, e.g. any two points can be joined by a straight line, etc


Today, "axiom" and "postulate" (in the "demand" sense given above) are used interchangeably.
farmerman
 
  1  
Fri 17 Apr, 2015 09:41 am
@layman,
your definition of axiom leaves out the most salient thing, AXIOMS are UNIVESRAL TRUTHS THAT ARE SELF_EVIDENT, in other words and axiom is taken for granted as being true. A thory in science becomes a fct or it is discarded but only by robust piles of evidence . A theory is defintely NOT SELF EVIDENT so your original statement was incorrect, sorry.


You are right that one half of an axiom can not be used to support the other, thats why a theory in science is not an AXIOM or an EQUATION (like a LAW). Its an explanation to a phenomenon.
Germ Theory
Atomic Theory
Theory of Plate Tectonics

There may be an axiom or two that are able to support theory. Heres a silly one
"Quadrupeds have four legs. Its silly but self evident. "Sugar is sweet" is an axiom

Sweetness of sugar derives from dissociation of conservative chemical compounds. (Thats really not true but it needs evidence to refute). Thats NOT an axiom.

AXIOMS in geometry or math are "given" assumptions from which we derive proofs. Like pythgorus theorem has several axioms ("squares are 4 sided figures in two dimesions that have 4 internal angles of 90 degrees and all sides equal in length"). THATS A GIVEN, an axiom.
So that, the "Square on the hypotenuse of a right triangle are equal to the sum of the squares of the other two sides'

This is off the top of my head so Im not trying to omit anything
layman
 
  0  
Fri 17 Apr, 2015 09:47 am
@farmerman,
.
Quote:
your definition of axiom leaves out the most salient thing, AXIOMS are UNIVESRAL TRUTHS THAT ARE SELF_EVIDENT


I'm going to assume that you composed this response before reading the excerpt I cited in the post immediately preceding yours.
layman
 
  0  
Fri 17 Apr, 2015 10:18 am
@layman,
Quote:
Axioms define and delimit the realm of analysis; the truth of an axiom is taken for granted within the particular domain of analysis, and serves as a starting point for deducing and inferring other truths.


This (especially the bolded part) is the aspect of Neo-Darwinism that those calling for a "rethinking" see as a problem.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Fri 17 Apr, 2015 10:33 am
@layman,
Quote:
I'm going to assume that you composed this response before reading the excerpt I cited in the post immediately preceding yours.
Actually, I think I posted this twice before you wrote anything re" ":Self evident truths, and you denied it till you posted the above.

aying that any art of a thory is "axiomatic" is kind of back handed. ANY part of a thory needs to be evidenced or it gets discarded. If everyone decides to discard segments of Darwinism or neo Darwinism, just let em gather the evidence, post it to something like Nature or Science and let everyone have at it.



farmerman
 
  2  
Fri 17 Apr, 2015 10:34 am
@layman,
Quote:
What difference does it make anyway, as far as what we're talking about?
at least lets endeavor to be accurate.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Fri 17 Apr, 2015 10:39 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
aying that any art of a thory is "axiomatic" is kind of back handed. ANY part of a thory needs to be evidenced or it gets discarded


Well, yeah, but it is the theory, not the "part," which gets discarded if it is inconsistent with empirical findings. All scientific theories, by definition, have fundamental axiomatic premises. If you change those, then you have changed the theory.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Fri 17 Apr, 2015 01:22 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
If everyone decides to discard segments of Darwinism or neo Darwinism, just let em gather the evidence, post it to something like Nature or Science and let everyone have at it.


That's exactly what has been done, according the acknowledgment of all 15 (both pro and con as regards the need for a "rethinking") of the evolutionary theorists cited in the Nature article I posted. They all concede that the "modern synthesis" is "passé," as I read it (and I quoted the parts of the article that express that).

There are still hangers-on who attempt to somehow cram every new discovery into some form of random mutation and natural selection, but it's not convincing. These mechanisms are inconsistent with the axiomatic premises of Neo-Darwinism.
farmerman
 
  2  
Fri 17 Apr, 2015 06:52 pm
@layman,
no, the article was a "point counterpoint" discussion (ll journl hve thee". NO real evidence was presented, evaluated , or lab data produced.

One of a bunch of points is that, should a specific genomic transition occur and it occurs many times with (as plasticity defines) several different phenotypes erupt, and an environmental change ccyrs so that only on of the "hopeful monsters" survives, IS THAT NOT NATURAL SELECTION IN ACTION??

So far this is a word game in serach of substance.

ANYWAY, theres only one paleontologist in that group, Neil Shubin, who discusses his views in "Your Inner Fish"
He and Daeschler hve been accosted with "examples of" tetrapod fish from earlier in the Devonian record. It appears that these tetrapodal fish are only viible as tracks in strea way deposits. No other data r evidence is available other than a geological fact that the aggrading continental stream deposits indicate a drying environment in the areas where these fossils appear.

No genes to play with, just plenty of environmental evidence in which the phenotyic morphing appears to be "th result of a selection event".
No matter what, noone has, by any evidence, successfully eliminated natural selection as THE adaptational mechanism. All these means of gene transfer fail to explain how many thousands of endemicspecies morph without any genetic changes.
(Galapogos finches ) are all separate species adapted to exploiting limited resources, yet, after genomic studies are done, the species have NOT YET really split off(whether by common ancestor or daptive radition)

Looks like Goulds "bookkeeping of evolution" hs some merit orth looking into.


.

farmerman
 
  2  
Fri 17 Apr, 2015 06:58 pm
@layman,
Quote:
There are still hangers-on who attempt to somehow cram every new discovery into some form of random mutation and natural selection, but it's not convincing.
You seem to talk as i youve got study experience. DO YOU?
If so, arent you sort of being a bit "true to your school" based on your own work?

Im an applied science guy who USES whatever way the information is leaning. I make money for clients by being able to predict phenotypic morphing of things like diatoms and forams. (They show us where the specific fuels are).

So far, the applied science world has not made any money on LGT, wed be back to our old technology that e called "Saturation drilling"

Pleoenvironmental nd naturl selection cladistics has , along with new areas in geophysics, and aplied stats, really turned our searches into focused tools.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Fri 17 Apr, 2015 09:47 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
no, the article was a "point counterpoint" discussion (ll journl hve thee". NO real evidence was presented, evaluated , or lab data produced.

I didn't say the evidence was presented, I merely said they acknowledged the evidence for certain mechanisms:
Quote:
That's exactly what has been done, according the acknowledgment of all 15



Quote:
One of a bunch of points is that, should a specific genomic transition occur and it occurs many times with (as plasticity defines) several different phenotypes erupt, and an environmental change ccyrs so that only on of the "hopeful monsters" survives, IS THAT NOT NATURAL SELECTION IN ACTION??


The issue isn't whether natural selection "occurs." Even apostates like Margulis freely concede that natural selection, "eliminates, and maybe maintains'" (or however she put it, exactly). But she clearly denies that it "creates." It is the role, not the existence, of natural selection that is being questioned.


Quote:
No genes to play with, just plenty of environmental evidence in which the phenotyic morphing appears to be "th result of a selection event".


I really don't know what you're trying to say here. What is a "selection event?" An environmental change, or what? And what do you mean by "phenotypic morphing?" Creation of a new species, or what?

Quote:
All these means of gene transfer fail to explain how many thousands of endemicspecies morph without any genetic changes.


I don't understand this either. If you are referring to Galapagos finches, it's not clear that there are even different species, because they can freely interbreed.

Quote:
the team's findings suggest that hybridisation is very important to these birds' evolution. In particular, they saw that the rise and fall of pointed beaks in one species - once again, the medium ground finch - was driven by hybridisation with a different, pointed-beak species...."When you look at their results, you can see the trees are quite messy, in terms of the traditional species groupings."


http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-31425720

This same study showed also showed that different genetic structures accounted for different beak sizes, so I'm not sure what you're getting at when you cite the lack of "genetic changes." Furthermore, differences in these genes were found within what always been considered to be the "same species."

This seems to be a case where Shapiro's "evolutionary toolbox" could be at work, with phenotypical changes being generated by "switches" which determine which genetic possibilities are actually expressed, and the like, rather than being a case of strict pre-determinism based on DNA. Those same "tools" could also generate "selection" based at least in part on internal, rather than external factors.
layman
 
  1  
Sat 18 Apr, 2015 12:47 am
@layman,
A paper entitled "Epigenetics and the Evolution of Darwin’s Finches," published in the journal "Genome Biology and Evolution" in 2014, for example, stated that, with respect to the Galapagos finches:

Quote:
This study provides one of the first genome-wide comparisons of genetic and epigenetic mutations among related species of organisms. There were relatively more epimutations than genetic CNV mutations among the five species of Darwin’s finches, which suggests that epimutations are a major component of genome variation during evolutionary change. There was also a statistically significant correlation between the number of epigenetic differences and phylogenetic distance between finches (figs. 1 and 3), indicating that the number of epigenetic changes continues to accumulate over long periods of evolutionary time (2–3 Myr). In contrast, there was no significant relationship between the number of genetic CNV changes and phylogenetic distance.

Epigenetic changes are broadly defined as “molecular processes around DNA that regulate genome activity independent of DNA sequence and are mitotically stable"...Environmental factors have been shown to promote the epigenetic transgenerational inheritance of phenotypic variants (Skinner et al. 2010). In recent years, the importance of environmental cues in the induction of such variation has been widely acknowledged (Bonduriansky 2012).

http://gbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/6/8/1972.full

The idea of organisms modifying their genomes in response to environmental conditions is, needless to say, strictly prohibited by neo-darwinistic theory. Any such interaction between heritable traits generated within the organism and environmental conditions would necessarily minimize the role to be played by natural selection.

Wilso
 
  0  
Sat 18 Apr, 2015 02:20 am
@layman,
You keep saying "I don't understand". That's because you lack fm's education and intelligence.
martinies
 
  0  
Sat 18 Apr, 2015 02:40 am
@Wilso,
Dont know about intelligent when when someone cant see that death is the cause of form change in evolution. And then talking a load of meaningless genetical guff.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  0  
Sat 18 Apr, 2015 04:59 am
@layman,
I read it differently . Weve discussed epigenetic changes as a means to include a bit of Lmarkian thinking to the mix. Epigenetics is a an initial means to "create ne phenotypes" changes are "selected" , (adaptive radiation).

The only thing with epigenetics is ,are the new features fixed and will they become sources for macro evolution?


Quote:
Natural selection is a process in which environmental factors influence the survival and reproductive success of individuals bearing different phenotypes. Only selection on phenotypic traits with a heritable basis can lead to evolutionary change (Endler 1986). Observations indicate that epigenetic mechanisms have a role in influencing genomic variability (Huttley 2004; Ying and Huttley 2011). As epigenetic changes are also influenced by environmental factors, and can be heritable across generations (Skinner et al. 2010), they provide another molecular mechanism that can influence evolutionary change. Although Lamarck (1802) proposed that environmental factors can influence inheritance directly, his mechanism has not been widely recognized as a component of modern evolutionary theory (Day and Bonduriansky 2011). Recent work in epigenetics shows that epigenetic changes can, in fact, increase the heritable phenotypic variation available to natural selection


same article.
martinies
 
  1  
Sat 18 Apr, 2015 05:13 am
@farmerman,
Your not tacking the original question of why do people deny evolution.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  0  
Sat 18 Apr, 2015 05:14 am
@farmerman,
hers an article on the heritbility and reversability of epigenes. The idea was that they can adjust the phenotype to environmental changes (nat selection) . The technique used involve a bisulphite GCMS identification.
Reversability of the phenotype is the thing that the Grants suggested over their 35 year studies of finches.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3350677/


Im going fisihing, Ill catch up later
 

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