132
   

Why do people deny evolution?

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 16 Apr, 2015 05:38 pm
@layman,
I think I told you that before. Margulis spoke of neo Darwinism most unflatteringly.

However, I find myself, based upon evidence mostly from endemism, a growing "fn" of "Phenotypic Plasticity" Its a term (I believe) coined by Musimo Pigliucci. Its where, subject to environmental pressures, a genotype can produce several or many different phenotypes.
I think it will be incorporated in any "Extended synthesis"
It is includes evidence of molecular chemistry, paleontological evidence,its counter-saltationism, it fits environmental constraint evidence, and, genetics.

IT IS, however, r silent on epigenetic functions (t this time)

If you wish to reject natural selection, show me your evidence,

layman
 
  0  
Thu 16 Apr, 2015 06:42 pm
There was an article on evolutionary theory published in Nature last year entitled "Does evolutionary theory need a rethink?" (subtitled "Researchers are divided over what processes should be considered fundamental").

The article took the form of a "pro" and "con" type of debate amongst 15 prominent theorists (Kevin Laland, Tobias Uller, Marc Feldman, Kim Sterelny, Gerd B. Müller, Armin Moczek, Eva Jablonka, John Odling-Smee, Gregory A. Wray, Hopi E. Hoekstra, Douglas J. Futuyma, Richard E. Lenski, Trudy F. C. Mackay, Dolph Schluter & Joan E. Strassmann) who were teamed up against each other on two sides, which were:

1. "Yes, urgently" (in need of a "rethink," that is) and
2 "No, all is well.

The "yes" team summarized what they called SET (standard evolutionary theory) as follows:

Quote:
The core of current evolutionary theory was forged in the 1930s and 1940s. It combined natural selection, genetics and other fields into a consensus about how evolution occurs. This ‘modern synthesis’ allowed the evolutionary process to be described mathematically as frequencies of genetic variants in a population change over time — as, for instance, in the spread of genetic resistance to the myxoma virus in rabbits....standard evolutionary theory (SET) largely retains the same assumptions as the original modern synthesis, which continues to channel how people think about evolution. The story that SET tells is simple: new variation arises through random genetic mutation; inheritance occurs through DNA; and natural selection is the sole cause of adaptation...


Summarizing their objections, the "yes" team said:

Quote:
In our view, this ‘gene-centric’ focus fails to capture the full gamut of processes that direct evolution. Missing pieces include how physical development influences the generation of variation (developmental bias); how the environment directly shapes organisms’ traits (plasticity); how organisms modify environments (niche construction); and how organisms transmit more than genes across generations (extra-genetic inheritance). For SET, these phenomena are just outcomes of evolution. For the EES, they are also causes.


The article then elaborated upon these concepts at some length. So how did the "no, all is well" team respond? See next post.

layman
 
  0  
Thu 16 Apr, 2015 07:05 pm
@layman,
In large part, the "no, all is well team" seemed to agree with the "yes urgently" team.

Quote:
...they contend that four phenomena are important evolutionary processes: phenotypic plasticity, niche construction, inclusive inheritance and developmental bias. We could not agree more. We study them ourselves....The prominence that these four phenomena command in the discourse of contemporary evolutionary theory reflects their proven explanatory power, not a lack of attention.


It seems they primarily objected to any notion the evolutionary theory did not already acknowledge and respect these concepts:

Quote:
We invite Laland and colleagues to join us in a more expansive extension, rather than imagining divisions that do not exist. We appreciate their ideas as an important part of what evolutionary theory might become in the future. We, too, want an extended evolutionary synthesis, but for us, these words are lowercase because this is how our field has always advanced. The best way to elevate the prominence of genuinely interesting phenomena such as phenotypic plasticity, inclusive inheritance, niche construction and developmental bias (and many, many others) is to strengthen the evidence for their importance.


http://www.nature.com/news/does-evolutionary-theory-need-a-rethink-1.16080

So, is it all just a matter of "semantics?' Yes, and no, if you ask me. Many of these concepts are strictly at odds with the "modern synthesis" aka "Neo-Darwinism." So, "Neo-Darwinism" definitely needs to be "re-thought." But if you just call every new empirical discovery and novel theoretical approach a natural and normal part of "modern evolutionary biology," then no. EVERYTHING is then "evolutionary biology." However, everything is NOT Neo-Darwinism.

Why not just call a spade a spade? We, perhaps the "yes, urgently" team gives the answer to that when they note that:

Quote:
The number of biologists calling for change in how evolution is conceptualized is growing rapidly....Yet the mere mention of the EES often evokes an emotional, even hostile, reaction among evolutionary biologists. Too often, vital discussions descend into acrimony, with accusations of muddle or misrepresentation. Perhaps haunted by the spectre of intelligent design, evolutionary biologists wish to show a united front to those hostile to science. Some might fear that they will receive less funding and recognition if outsiders — such as physiologists or developmental biologists — flood into their field.


So the idea is, they say, something like this: Let's all pretend we have no real disagreements. If we do otherwise, we'll just be giving ammunition to those DAMN CREATIONISTS.

Know what I'm sayin, Farmer?

layman
 
  0  
Thu 16 Apr, 2015 07:15 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:

If you wish to reject natural selection, show me your evidence,


Uhhh, I think it works the other way around actually. If you contend that natural selection is the dominant force driving evidence, show me YOUR evidence. What would I have to show, if I agree with Margulis, who said:
Quote:

Natural selection eliminates and maybe maintains, but it doesn't create ... neo-Darwinists say that new species emerge when mutations occur and modify an organism...I believed it until I looked for evidence.


0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 16 Apr, 2015 07:19 pm
@layman,
Heres a comment from the article in Nature that I tend to agree with.

Quote:
wonders “what the discussion is about.” The question is whether phenomena like plasticity and epigenetic inheritance are relevant to the modern synthesis and, if so, whether they demand a revolutionary overhaul of that theory. The comment article is misleading in that it focuses or pretends to focus on the first part of the question (yes, urgently vs no, all is well), which is, in our opinion, the least interesting and important part. The main issue at stake seems to be whether an extended evolutionary synthesis (EES) constitutes a revolutionary replacement of what is here called the standard evolutionary theory (SET). One thing is certain: previous extensions or rethinks of SET such as neutralism or punctuated equilibrium were also heralded as revolutionary but eventually turned out to be not much more than mere wrinkles on the surface of evolutionary theory (quoting Richard Dawkins). Will the fate of this new and significant extension be any fundamentally different? We doubt it. We tend to agree with Buss: “The synthetic theory cannot be incorrect; it can only be incomplete”


I tend to think that you wish to make believe that the SET is "in state of crisis" after all.

Keep mining, youre not too convincing.

layman
 
  0  
Thu 16 Apr, 2015 07:29 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Heres a comment from the article in Nature that I tend to agree with....

"...punctuated equilibrium were also heralded as revolutionary but eventually turned out to be not much more than mere wrinkles on the surface of evolutionary theory (quoting Richard Dawkins)."


I must say that it certainly doesn't surprise me that you would agree with what Richard Dawkins (the most vicious and acrimonious opponent of punctuated equilibrium theory imaginable) has to say about PE, eh? Dawkins is, and always was, a devoted, ultra-conservative, hard-line, pan-adaptionist neo-Darwinian. As extreme, dogmatic, and pedantic as you could get, on that score.
layman
 
  0  
Thu 16 Apr, 2015 07:42 pm
@farmerman,

Quote:
Keep mining, youre not too convincing.


I would never even dream of convincing you, Farmer. I have asked a series of specific questions of you, all of which just go largely ignored. You don't seem interested in "discussing" the matter, really. You just come back with another short post, re-iterating your unsubstantiated claims, and your distortions of your "opponents" views, and challenging anyone to "disprove" your claims.

Such tactics belie one who could NEVER be convinced of any alternative view.

By the way, what are you calling "mining," exactly? Quoting a person to show what they REALLY said, that it?
farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 16 Apr, 2015 07:51 pm
@layman,
Am I not allowed to pick and choose what I gree with??
HAve you spent several decades doing field work and following the bullshit trail of Punctuated Equilibrium? I hve and I agree 100% with Dawkins here. (Findings in the mid 2000's of Gould's own field sites from which he and Eldredge derived PE, sites which involved specific molluscans and spirifers, were later found to be actually rather gradualistic). So hes right
As far as your rant about my "pro Dawkinsianism" , Im laughing a bit.Anybody who has read anything Ive posted here knows that Ive been a detractor of Dawkins. So are you trying to paint me as a Dawkinsite, youll be found flat wrong. Hes done some valuable work so Id try not to stand too high and take shots from the vantage point of a distant viewer.






On retrospect, I think both sides of the NAture article have missed the point in proposing anything that is even falsifiable. (back to basics)



You still hve avoided the question-Do you feel that evolution is "in crisis"?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 16 Apr, 2015 08:03 pm
@layman,
Cmon , youre being a bot disengenuous.

Ive answered everything strait out and youve ignored
My def of Darwinism V neo Darwinism,

Your denial that Shapiro has used Creationist pickings for some of his opinions.
Your problem is that you seem to only see one pathway , and, instead of discussing options, youve claimed that Im the "old schooler" or then "Im a neo Darwinist" (Which is it?)

None of that is even worth a pinch of **** IMO.
Show me evidence that natural selection doesnt apply or that it doesnt account for higher orders( in plants and animals), or show me evidence that many of the mechanisms youve taken a liking to are "Exclusional to environmental effects on phenotypes" .
AND, in addition,do you really think that volution is "in crisis"?
layman
 
  -1  
Thu 16 Apr, 2015 08:11 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
in addition,do you really think that volution is "in crisis"?


Farmer, I really don't think you've even gotten the import of most of what I've said here. I'm not pretending to know the "best" evolutionary theory (although I have to admit that I've never found the metaphysical doctrine that is Neo-Darwinism to be very compelling). I'm not arguing that any particular view is correct.

My comments are not really about evolution, per se. They relate more to issues which arise in the philosophy of science.

But to answer your question, more or less: "Crisis" as I understand it, is not necessarily some "catastrophe." It is merely (in some senses of the word) a "turning point" where important changes occur and/or important decisions are required. In that sense, yeah, I think it might be going through stages where important "turning points" in fundamental evolutionary theory are being encountered. To quote one of the "no, all is well" proponents in the debate:

Quote:
We consider ourselves fortunate to live and work in the most exciting, inclusive and progressive period of evolutionary research since the modern synthesis. Far from being stuck in the past, current evolutionary theory is vibrantly creative and rapidly growing in scope.


Notice the phrasing "since the modern synthesis" indicating that they think this is a "new era," which puts the "modern synthesis" into the past tense. And, again, this is from the "No, all is well" crowd.
FBM
 
  1  
Thu 16 Apr, 2015 09:18 pm
@Herald,
Herald wrote:

FBM wrote:
I'm thinking the theory of evolution will continue to evolve.
     ... When one builds something on quicksands what is needed is rather reinforcement of the foundations ... than continue building a skyscaper ... on the shaking assumptions.


Yeah, like the assumption that alien/ILF/g0d-thingies are teleporting instructions for the structure/evolution of the universe to the present? Nothing shaky about that foundation at all. I'm sure that building will be around for centuries to come. Laughing
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Thu 16 Apr, 2015 09:40 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
However, I find myself, based upon evidence mostly from endemism, a growing "fn" of "Phenotypic Plasticity"


Forgive me for not giving you some credit for this statement sooner, Farmer. I read "fn" as "footnote" and didn't understand what you were trying to say. I realize now that you must have meant "fan."

That does indeed show some ability to accept new theoretical concepts, even if they do counter orthodoxy.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Thu 16 Apr, 2015 10:17 pm
@layman,
I said:
Quote:
My comments are not really about evolution, per se. They relate more to issues which arise in the philosophy of science.


Natural selection is one of the basic axioms of Neo-darwinistic theory. In science (or any other area of theorizing) you can never use deductions drawn from your axioms to prove the axioms themselves. That would merely be "circular" reasoning. An axiom is, and must remain, an unquestioned (and unproven) "starting point" in any theory.

So you merely posit your axioms and then ever-after assume their truth and validity. And then you act as though the burden is on others to "disprove" them, when, by their very nature, they cannot, and will not, be proven by their advocates to begin with. It's mere fiat that some mistake for "factual truth," due to their theoretical indoctrination.

For neo-darwinists, there is no need to demonstrate what "did" happen. Within the confines of their theoretical framework, it is only necessary to show what "could" happen. If their axioms are "possible" that's all it take to satisfy them.

For some people, like Lynn Margulis, for example, the more they read and learn about a topic, the more questions they have. Sometimes there are so many questions without satisfactory answers that they end up rejecting most everything that they have "learned."

For others, the more they read and learn, the more certain they are that they have "mastered" a subject, and now "know" something;

Quote:
“Education is that which discloses to the wise and disguises from the foolish their lack of understanding.” (Ambrose Bierce)

farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 16 Apr, 2015 10:45 pm
@layman,
axioms are self evident truths. Natural slection is a core of a theory. A theory is
1A fact developed by evidence or axioms or other theories

2 and is only proven by "not being disproven"

Nat selection isnt , therefore an axiom. Its not self evident (as are most all other mehanistic processes proposed in" evolutionary theories"

NAt selection is the CORE of Darwinian Evolutionary theory(Ive already disussed the differences tween neo and Darwinian evolution.

Ive NEVER asked you to do anything. If you recall, you were the one who started in and suggested that the Modern Evolutionary Synthesis was in need of changing an suggested there was a "crisis"
( but you failed to distinguish between neo nd Darwinian). Ive jusst been trying to understnd while you hve been labelling me. Cmon lets be fair .



Im still fter the answer s to hether you really mean that the THEORY IS IN CRISIS.

Oh yeh, over on Owl Creek, Ambrose also said



"faith is Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel"
layman
 
  -1  
Thu 16 Apr, 2015 11:33 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Im still fter the answer s to hether you really mean that the THEORY IS IN CRISIS.


I don't know what you're waiting for. I just answered it.

Quote:
axioms are self evident truths


I disagree.

Quote:
. A theory is
1A fact developed by evidence or axioms or other theories


Again, I disagree. There is a fundamental difference between fact and theory.


Quote:
Nat selection isnt , therefore an axiom. Its not self evident


I agree that it's not self-evident. I don't agree that it isn't an axiom of neo-darwinistic theory, however.

Quote:
Nat selection is the CORE of Darwinian Evolutionary theory


I agree.


Quote:
Ive NEVER asked you to do anything. If you recall, you were the one who started in and suggested that the Modern Evolutionary Synthesis was in need of changing an suggested there was a "crisis"


Can you show me where I said that? I don't recall saying that. I think what I said was that I got the impression, from reading some of the literature, that fewer and fewer current evolutionary theorists (especially the younger ones) put nearly the same emphasis on natural selection as did the tenets of the "modern synthesis," as a theoretical framework.

You keep telling me to prove that natural selection ISN'T the primary force driving evolution, don't you?

Quote:
( but you failed to distinguish between neo nd Darwinian).


Where, and in what way, did I fail to do this?



FBM
 
  1  
Fri 17 Apr, 2015 12:33 am
Appropo of nothing, just a cool picture:

http://i1330.photobucket.com/albums/w561/hapkido1996/11080990_1084832454871098_5768490455808693935_n_zpsn24r2d1t.jpg
0 Replies
 
martinies
 
  -1  
Fri 17 Apr, 2015 03:51 am
People deny evolution because they dont understand that death is the cosmic designers way of changing forms by natural selection. Consciousness is supernatural so when the body of an animal or man dies its consciousness remains in existance as part of the macro cosmic super nature.
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Fri 17 Apr, 2015 04:34 am
Rolling Eyes
martinies
 
  -1  
Fri 17 Apr, 2015 05:08 am
@FBM,
Ok lets imagine two sets of microcosms evolving billions of miles apart. Both sets of evolving forms are inside the timespace of the macrocosm but they still relate in terms of supernatural consciousness and are indistiushable in that regard to one another. The nonlocal element is always indistinguishable to its self as an omni presents universaly. May the force be with you fbm.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Fri 17 Apr, 2015 07:20 am
@layman,
Quote:
I disagree
Then you should spend time with the various words like "axiom" nd "theory". They have precise meanings different than yours.

Quote:
There is a fundamental difference between fact and theory
Youre dancing very close to "its only a theory"

Quote:
t. I don't agree that it isn't an axiom of neo-darwinistic theory, however.

Axiom as in "self evident truth?", I dont think any scientist is so loaded with hubris. Well, maybe those whod rather spout tht they re looking for a"middle ground theory" between Science and ID.
All sides of the "Im ok, youre not ok" bunches, hve ALL stated that they need evidence aplenty to score any points .

Quote:
Where, and in what way, did I fail to do this?
You use them interchangeably
 

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