132
   

Why do people deny evolution?

 
 
ellease1
 
  -1  
Wed 28 Jan, 2015 04:38 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Karen essentially was saying “it is possible to believe in a GOD (creator)…and “it is possible to believe in evolution” at the same time.


Quote:
What do you mean with that expression?


You can also believe that pigs can fly. But a belief does not constitute a fact. Evolution and god only applies to the material. The only aspect of this creation that has the stamp of originality is the source of the material. Make your enquiries into the source and not its expressions and you will have all the answers to your questions.

izzythepush
 
  1  
Wed 28 Jan, 2015 04:57 pm
@ellease1,
ellease1 wrote:
Evolution and god only applies to the material.


No it doesn't, it applies to advertising which has really come a long way, and both God and Evolution should be given their dues along with cocaine.
ellease1
 
  -1  
Wed 28 Jan, 2015 07:50 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
No it doesn't, it applies to advertising which has really come a long way, and both God and Evolution should be given their dues along with cocaine.


You can apply it to anything you like, my point is they have no place in the reality. God is the totality of consciousness, to all intent and purpose a name, an idea. Evolution is a way of thinking, a mode of thought.

If you were not embodied what could you possibly do or talk about?

The absolute precedes time, awareness comes first.
cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Wed 28 Jan, 2015 09:10 pm
@ellease1,
You are quite ignorant; you shame yourself.
Herald
 
  1  
Wed 28 Jan, 2015 10:20 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
You are quite ignorant; you shame yourself.
     ... and you are repeating one and the same ad homs again and again ... to infinity, like a broken record - why don't you take to change the record, for example.
FBM
 
  1  
Wed 28 Jan, 2015 10:37 pm
@Herald,
And this is from Herald, the guy who claimed that evolution means only predators can survive. http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/roll.gif


http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/16810_393175547524462_8926762213579281522_n.jpg

0 Replies
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Thu 29 Jan, 2015 12:14 am
http://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/our-early-ancestors-had-hands-ours-capable-gripping-tools
0 Replies
 
ellease1
 
  0  
Thu 29 Jan, 2015 03:28 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
You are quite ignorant; you shame yourself.


First know the meaning of the word in its entirety then you can use it.
Your idea that you were born and that you will die is ignorance: both logic and experience contradict it.

Evolution is a good concept that explains the process and formation of the material that embodies the consciousness. How did this consciousness come about is the primary question.

If you want answers you must disregard what the books and other people are telling you, can you not think for yourself?
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Thu 29 Jan, 2015 03:39 am
@ellease1,
You're only further proving your ignorance. Logic? Ha ha ha....
ellease1
 
  0  
Thu 29 Jan, 2015 03:42 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
You're only further proving your ignorance. Logic? Ha ha ha....


Did you witness your birth?
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Thu 29 Jan, 2015 03:52 am
@ellease1,
What a stupid question.
gungasnake
 
  -1  
Thu 29 Jan, 2015 03:56 am
Quote:
Why do people deny evolution?


Mainly because evolution is a bunch of ignorant bullshit.

A proof or disproof is a kind of a transaction. There is no such thing as absolutely proving or disproving something; there is only such a thing as proving or disproving something to SOMEBODY'S satisfaction. If the party of the second part is too thick or too ideologically committed to some other way of viewing reality, then the best proof in the world will fall flat and fail.

In the case of evolution, what you have is a theory which has been repeatedly and overwhelmingly disproved over a period of many decades now via a number of independent lines reasoning and yet the adherents go on with it as if nothing had happened and, in fact, demand that the doctrine be taught in public schools at public expense and that no other theory of origins even ever be mentioned in public schools, and attempt to enforce all of that via political power plays and lawsuits.

At that point, it is clear enough that no disproof or combination of disproofs would ever suffice, that the doctrine is in fact unfalsifiable and that Carl popper's criteria for a pseudoscience is in fact met.

Once again for anybody who may have missed this earlier:





The educated lay person is not aware of how overwhelmingly evolution has been debunked over the last century.

The following is a minimal list of entire categories of evidence disproving evolution:

The decades-long experiments with fruit flies beginning in the early 1900s. Those tests were intended to demonstrate macroevolution; the failure of those tests was so unambiguous that a number of prominent scientists disavowed evolution at the time.

The discovery of the DNA/RNA info codes (information codes do not just sort of happen...)

The fact that the info code explained the failure of the fruit-fly experiments (the whole thing is driven by information and the only info there ever was in that picture was the info for a fruit fly...)

The discovery of bio-electrical machinery within 1-celled animals.

The question of irreducible complexity.

The Haldane Dilemma. That is, the gigantic spaces of time it would take to spread any genetic change through an entire herd of animals.

The increasingly massive evidence of a recent age for dinosaurs. This includes soft tissue being found in dinosaur remains, good radiocarbon dates for dinosaur remains (blind tests at the University of Georgia's dating lab), and native American petroglyphs clearly showing known dinosaur types.

The fact that the Haldane dilemma and the recent findings related to dinosaurs amount to a sort of a time sandwich (evolutionites need quadrillions of years and only have a few tens of thousands).

The dna analysis eliminating neanderthals and thus all other hominids as plausible human ancestors.

The total lack of intermediate fossils where the theory demands that the bulk of all fossils be clear intermediate types. "Punctuated Equilibria" in fact amounts to an attempt to get around both the Haldane dilemma and the lack of intermediate fossils, but has an entirely new set of overwhelming problems of its own...

The question of genetic entropy.

The obvious evidence of design in nature.

The arguments arising from pure probability and combinatoric considerations.


Here's what I mean when I use the term "combinatoric considerations"...

The best illustration of how stupid evolutionism really is involves trying to become some totally new animal with new organs, a new basic plan for existence, and new requirements for integration between both old and new organs.

Take flying birds for example; suppose you aren't one, and you want to become one. You'll need a baker's dozen highly specialized systems, including wings, flight feathers, the specialized system which allows flight feathers to pivot so as to open on upstrokes and close to trap air on downstrokes (like a venetian blind), a specialized light bone structure, specialized flow-through design heart and lungs, specialized tail, specialized general balance parameters etc.

For starters, every one of these things would be antifunctional until the day on which the whole thing came together, so that the chances of evolving any of these things by any process resembling evolution (mutations plus selection) would amount to an infinitessimal, i.e. one divided by some gigantic number.

In probability theory, to compute the probability of two things happening at once, you multiply the probabilities together. That says that the likelihood of all these things ever happening, best case, is ten or twelve such infinitessimals multiplied together, i.e. a tenth or twelth-order infinitessimal. The whole history of the universe isn't long enough for that to happen once.

All of that was the best case. In real life, it's even worse than that. In real life, natural selection could not plausibly select for hoped-for functionality, which is what would be required in order to evolve flight feathers on something which could not fly apriori. In real life, all you'd ever get would some sort of a random walk around some starting point, rather than the unidircetional march towards a future requirement which evolution requires.

And the real killer, i.e. the thing which simply kills evolutionism dead, is the following consideration: In real life, assuming you were to somehow miraculously evolve the first feature you'd need to become a flying bird, then by the time another 10,000 generations rolled around and you evolved the second such reature, the first, having been disfunctional/antifunctional all the while, would have DE-EVOLVED and either disappeared altogether or become vestigial.

Now, it would be miraculous if, given all the above, some new kind of complex creature with new organs and a new basic plan for life had ever evolved ONCE.

Evolutionism, however (the Theory of Evolution) requires that this has happened countless billions of times, i.e. an essentially infinite number of absolutely zero probability events.

I ask you: What could be stupider than that?


Fruit flies breed new generations every few days. Running a continuous decades-long experiment on fruit flies will involve more generations of fruit flies than there have ever been of anything resembling humans on Earth. Evolution is supposed to be driven by random mutation and natural selection; they subjected those flies to everything in the world known to cause mutations and recombined the mutants every possible way, and all they ever got was fruit flies.

Richard Goldschmidt wrote the results of all of that up in 1940, noting that it was then obvious enough that no combination of mutation and selection could ever produce a new kind of animal.

There is no excuse for evolution to ever have been taught in schools after 1940.
FBM
 
  1  
Thu 29 Jan, 2015 04:05 am
@gungasnake,
You might want to update your list of anti-evolution fallacies. Everything you listed has been debunked: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html

For example:

Quote:
Index to Creationist Claims, edited by Mark Isaak, Copyright © 2007
Previous Claim: CB180 | List of Claims | Next Claim: CB200.1
Claim CB200:

Some biochemical systems are irreducibly complex, meaning that the removal of any one part of the system destroys the system's function. Irreducible complexity rules out the possibility of a system having evolved, so it must be designed.
[/size]
Source:

Behe, Michael J. 1996. Darwin's Black Box, New York: The Free Press.
Response:

Irreducible complexity can evolve. It is defined as a system that loses its function if any one part is removed, so it only indicates that the system did not evolve by the addition of single parts with no change in function. That still leaves several evolutionary mechanisms:

deletion of parts
addition of multiple parts; for example, duplication of much or all of the system (Pennisi 2001)
change of function
addition of a second function to a part (Aharoni et al. 2004)
gradual modification of parts

All of these mechanisms have been observed in genetic mutations. In particular, deletions and gene duplications are fairly common (Dujon et al. 2004; Hooper and Berg 2003; Lynch and Conery 2000), and together they make irreducible complexity not only possible but expected. In fact, it was predicted by Nobel-prize-winning geneticist Hermann Muller almost a century ago (Muller 1918, 463-464). Muller referred to it as interlocking complexity (Muller 1939).

Evolutionary origins of some irreducibly complex systems have been described in some detail. For example, the evolution of the Krebs citric acid cycle has been well studied (Meléndez-Hevia et al. 1996), and the evolution of an "irreducible" system of a hormone-receptor system has been elucidated (Bridgham et al. 2006). Irreducibility is no obstacle to their formation.

Even if irreducible complexity did prohibit Darwinian evolution, the conclusion of design does not follow. Other processes might have produced it. Irreducible complexity is an example of a failed argument from incredulity.

Irreducible complexity is poorly defined. It is defined in terms of parts, but it is far from obvious what a "part" is. Logically, the parts should be individual atoms, because they are the level of organization that does not get subdivided further in biochemistry, and they are the smallest level that biochemists consider in their analysis. Behe, however, considered sets of molecules to be individual parts, and he gave no indication of how he made his determinations.

Systems that have been considered irreducibly complex might not be. For example:
The mousetrap that Behe used as an example of irreducible complexity can be simplified by bending the holding arm slightly and removing the latch.
The bacterial flagellum is not irreducibly complex because it can lose many parts and still function, either as a simpler flagellum or a secretion system. Many proteins of the eukaryotic flagellum (also called a cilium or undulipodium) are known to be dispensable, because functional swimming flagella that lack these proteins are known to exist.
In spite of the complexity of Behe's protein transport example, there are other proteins for which no transport is necessary (see Ussery 1999 for references).
The immune system example that Behe includes is not irreducibly complex because the antibodies that mark invading cells for destruction might themselves hinder the function of those cells, allowing the system to function (albeit not as well) without the destroyer molecules of the complement system.
Links:

TalkOrigins Archive. n.d. Irreducible complexity and Michael Behe. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/behe.html
References:

Aharoni, A., L. Gaidukov, O. Khersonsky, S. McQ. Gould, C. Roodveldt and D. S. Tawfik. 2004. The 'evolvability' of promiscuous protein functions. Nature Genetics [Epub Nov. 28 ahead of print]
Bridgham, Jamie T., Sean M. Carroll and Joseph W. Thornton. 2006. Evolution of hormone-receptor complexity by molecular exploitation. Science 312: 97-101. See also Adami, Christopher. 2006. Reducible complexity. Science 312: 61-63.
Dujon, B. et al. 2004. Genome evolution in yeasts. Nature 430: 35-44.
Hooper, S. D. and O. G. Berg. 2003. On the nature of gene innovation: Duplication patterns in microbial genomes. Molecular Biololgy and Evolution 20(6): 945-954.
Lynch, M. and J. S. Conery. 2000. The evolutionary fate and consequences of duplicate genes. Science 290: 1151-1155. See also Pennisi, E., 2000. Twinned genes live life in the fast lane. Science 290: 1065-1066.
Meléndez-Hevia, Enrique, Thomas G. Waddell and Marta Cascante. 1996. The puzzle of the Krebs citric acid cycle: Assembling the pieces of chemically feasible reactions, and opportunism in the design of metabolic pathways during evolution. Journal of Molecular Evolution 43(3): 293-303.
Muller, Hermann J. 1918. Genetic variability, twin hybrids and constant hybrids, in a case of balanced lethal factors. Genetics 3: 422-499. http://www.genetics.org/content/vol3/issue5/index.shtml
Muller, H. J. 1939. Reversibility in evolution considered from the standpoint of genetics. Biological Reviews of the Cambridge Philosophical Society 14: 261-280.
Pennisi, Elizabeth. 2001. Genome duplications: The stuff of evolution? Science 294: 2458-2460.
Ussery, David. 1999. A biochemist's response to "The biochemical challenge to evolution". Bios 70: 40-45. http://www.cbs.dtu.dk/staff/dave/Behe.html
Further Reading:

Gray, Terry M.. 1999. Complexity--yes! Irreducible--maybe! Unexplainable--no! A creationist criticism of irreducible complexity. http://tallship.chm.colostate.edu/evolution/irred_compl.html

Lindsay, Don. 1996. Review: "Darwin's black box, the biochemical challenge to evolution" by Michael Behe. http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/creation/behe.html

Miller, K. 1999. Finding Darwin's God. Harper-Collins, chap. 5.

Shanks, N. and K. H. Joplin. 1999. Redundant complexity: A analysis of intelligent design in biochemistry. Philosophy of Science 66: 268-298. http://www.asa3.org/ASA/topics/Apologetics/POS6-99ShenksJoplin.html

ellease1
 
  0  
Thu 29 Jan, 2015 04:15 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
What a stupid question.


If people can witness the falling away of the body, as in Near Death and Out Of Body experiences then it is perfectly within the scheme of logic to be in the same position in order to witness the birth of the body. Obviously it is not your experience.

Let me put it another way; did you experience passing through the birth canal?
gungasnake
 
  0  
Thu 29 Jan, 2015 04:25 am
@FBM,
Anybody who would cite talk.origins for anything in any sort of an origins discussion is basically out of the loop.
FBM
 
  2  
Thu 29 Jan, 2015 04:27 am
@gungasnake,
You can do better than a blatant ad hom, can't you?
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Thu 29 Jan, 2015 04:55 am
@ellease1,
That's not logic; it's mental illusion.
You're even ignorant what logic means.
gungasnake
 
  0  
Thu 29 Jan, 2015 04:57 am
@FBM,
Isaak:
Quote:
Even if irreducible complexity did prohibit Darwinian evolution, the conclusion of design does not follow. Other processes might have produced it. ...


What kind of bullshit is that? WHAT other processes???

I mean, the best example of an irreducibly complex biological system is probably just the heart/lung/vascular system of any mammal, take any piece of that away and the creatures dies before he's born.

Have you ever field-dressed a deer or do evolutionists live entirely indoors? I mean, I can't picture anybody who ever HAD field-dressed a deer having any sort of a problem with Behe's notion of irreducible complexity.
FBM
 
  1  
Thu 29 Jan, 2015 05:06 am
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:

Isaak:
Quote:
Even if irreducible complexity did prohibit Darwinian evolution, the conclusion of design does not follow. Other processes might have produced it. ...


What kind of bullshit is that? WHAT other processes???


That was pointing out the false dichotomy in thinking that it's either evolution or a god. There's Lamarckian evolution and several other early versions of evolution that do not require a supernatural being. There is no reason to think that, should the current theory prove insufficient, it wouldn't be replaced by an improved scientific theory based on evidence rather than blind faith in the unseen.

Quote:
I mean, the best example of an irreducibly complex biological system is probably just the heart/lung/vascular system of any mammal, take any piece of that away and the creatures dies before he's born.

Have you ever field-dressed a deer or do evolutionists live entirely indoors? I mean, I can't picture anybody who ever HAD field-dressed a deer having any sort of a problem with Behe's notion of irreducible complexity.


Well, it's time for you to picture one. I grew up hunting and fishing and I've cleaned more animals of more species than I can remember. My last kill was a spike at 330 yards with a Chinese SKS in the hills of North Carolina. Never once did I see the hand of god in there. A spleen, the pluck, etc, but nothing that I'd attribute to a supernatural origin.

If you're unaware of or ignore all the scientific evidence, it's easy to see how you'd arrive at the naive conclusion that the complexity of life forms suggests a divine source. However, education can fix that. Study the fossil record, learn the various ways fossils are dated, how DNA mutates, etc. The argument from incredulity evaporates in the presence of understanding.

A good place to start: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_01
Wilso
 
  0  
Thu 29 Jan, 2015 06:42 am
@FBM,
Don't engage with gunga dim. He's a childish loser not worth your (or anyone else's ) time.
0 Replies
 
 

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