132
   

Why do people deny evolution?

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 21 Dec, 2013 09:33 pm
@farmerman,
Lets remember tht Jcob won his Nobel on specific ops in biochemical systems IN 1965. Weve learnd a lot since then but still, his views on evolutionary "tinkering" belie any sort of ID (gungas youtube tries to make it sound like jacob is a Creationist)

Heres a little something from Sandwalk a skeptical yet reasonable view of evolutionary kinetics by REL scientists(not Creationists)

Quote:
The action of natural selection has often been compared to that of an engineer. This comparison, however, does not seem suitable. First, in contrast to what occurs during evolution, the engineer works according to a preconceived plan. Second, an engineer who prepares a new structure does not necessarily work from older ones. he electric bulb does not derive from the candle, nor does the jet engine descend from the internal combustion engine. To produce something new, the engineer has at his disposal original blueprints drawn for that particular occasion, materials and machines specially prepared for that task. Finally, the objects thus produced de novo by the engineer, at least by a good engineer, reach the level of perfection made possible by the technology of the time.

In contrast, evolution is far from perfection, as was repeatedly stressed by Darwin, who had to fight against the argument from perfect creation. In the Origin of Species, Darwin emphasizes over and over again the structural and functional imperfections in the world. He always points out the oddities, the strange solutions that a reasonable God would never have used.

In contrast to the engineer, evolution does not produce innovations from scratch. It works on what already exists, either transforming a system to give it a new function or combining several systems to produce a more complex one. Natural selection has no analogy with any aspect of human behavior. If one wanted to use a comparison, however, one would have to say that this process resembles not engineering but tinkering, bricolage we say in French.

While the engineer's work relies on his having the raw materials and the tools that exactly fit his project, the tinkerer manages with odds and ends. Often without even knowing what he is going to produce, he uses whatever he finds around him, old cardboards, pieces of string, fragments of wood or metal, to make some kind of workable object. As pointed out by Claude Levi-Strauss, none of the materials at the tinkerer's disposal has a precise and definite function. Each can be used in several different ways. What the tinkerer ultimately produces is often related to no special project. It merely results from a series of contingent events, from all the opportunities he has to enrich his stock with leftovers. In contrast with the engineer's tools, those of the tinkerer cannot be defined by a a project. What can be said about an of these objects is that "it could be of some use." For what? That depends on the circumstances.

In some respects, the evolutionary derivation of living organisms resembles this mode of operation. In many instances, and without any well-defined long-term project, the tinkerer picks up an object which happens to be in his stock and gives it an unexpected function. Out of an old car wheel, he will make a fan; from a broken table, a parasol. This process is not very different from what evolution performs when it turns a leg into a wing, or a part of a jaw into pieces of ear.

...

When different engineers tackle the same problem, they are likely to end up with very nearly the same solution: all cars look alike, as do all cameras and all fountain pens. In contrast, different tinkerers interested in the same problem will reach different solutions, depending on the opportunities available to each of them. This variety of solutions also applies to the products of evolution, as is shown, for instance, by the diversity of eyes found throughout the living world. The possession of light receptors confers a great advantage under a variety of conditions. During evolution, many types of eyes appeared, based on at least three different principles: the lens, the pinhole, and multiple holes. The most sophisticated ones, like ours, are lens-based eyes, which provide information not only on the intensity of incoming light but also on the objects that light comes from, on their shape, color, position, motion, speed, distance, and so forth. Such sophisticated structures are necessarily complex.

One might suppose, therefore, that there is just one way of producing such a structure. But this is not the case. Eyes with lenses have appeared in molluscs and in vertebrates. Nothing looks so much like our eye as the octopus eye. Yet it did not evolve the same way. In vertebrates, the photoreceptor cells of the retina point away from the light while in molluscs they point toward the light. Among the many solutions found to the problem of photoreceptors, these two are similar but not identical. In each case, natural selection did what it could with the materials at its disposal.
farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 21 Dec, 2013 09:37 pm
@farmerman,
by the by, that piece was by the late Francois Jacob
0 Replies
 
JimmyJ
 
  0  
Sat 21 Dec, 2013 10:16 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
Something to do with rejecting one or other or all of the Catholic teachings on sexual matters. I can't think of any other sensible reason. And all my pub discussions, bar none, have shown me that it is the case.

The idea that Christianity holds back progress is laughable. It is the power house of progress. The very engine.


So, despite the fact that I have never once mentioned Catholicism, sexual matters, or anything of the sort, you are hereby asserting that's the reason??

I thought you were a little smarter than that.

JimmyJ
 
  0  
Sat 21 Dec, 2013 10:18 pm
@gungasnake,
It's fascinating that you don't have any sort of concept of science or the scientific community...

Do some research my friend.

C14 isn't used to date dinosaur bones. We use other isotopes to date the layers of rock that they're found in. I'd insult you, but I'd feel bad for insulting someone who blatantly doesn't know what they're talking about.
JimmyJ
 
  0  
Sat 21 Dec, 2013 10:20 pm
@neologist,
Quote:
I don't believe in evolution. Therefore, I have no burden of proof?


YES!! That's right indeed! The burden of proof is on us, and we've done a great job at giving you evidence as has the scientific community. You stated earlier that you would not change your opinion regardless of what was presented, though, so our efforts are wasted.
neologist
 
  1  
Sun 22 Dec, 2013 12:33 am
@JimmyJ,
I wrote:
I don't believe in evolution. Therefore, I have no burden of proof?
JimmyJ wrote:
YES!! That's right indeed! The burden of proof is on us, and we've done a great job at giving you evidence as has the scientific community. You stated earlier that you would not change your opinion regardless of what was presented, though, so our efforts are wasted.
Well, I was only asking because of the OP.

So, I guess I would have to say at this point is that I am impressed with the evidence presented, I can't see how it supports speciation.
JimmyJ
 
  1  
Sun 22 Dec, 2013 12:40 am
@neologist,
Quote:
I can't see how it supports speciation.


Elaborate
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 22 Dec, 2013 05:23 am
@JimmyJ,
Quote:
I thought you were a little smarter than that.


I am a little smarter than that James. I don't need you to have mentioned those things to know that they are the basis of your position.

Just as I wouldn't need to be told that someone is American or British if they continually referred to Afghan freedom fighters as insurgents or terrorists.
gungasnake
 
  0  
Sun 22 Dec, 2013 05:53 am
@JimmyJ,
Quote:
It's fascinating that you don't have any sort of concept of science or the scientific community...


It's fascinating that most evolosers can't come up with better arguments than that sort of stupid ad-hominem...
gungasnake
 
  0  
Sun 22 Dec, 2013 05:54 am
JimmyJ now on ignore...
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 22 Dec, 2013 06:03 am
@JimmyJ,
Quote:
It's fascinating that you don't have any sort of concept of science or the scientific community...


What exactly is the "concept of science or the scientific community"?

And you might miss out the PR because we know all that backwards.
farmerman
 
  2  
Sun 22 Dec, 2013 06:10 am
@gungasnake,
That's how you argue, you repeat the same old (and I mean old) creationist garbage which has no truth to it. (Every single point you've ever made with your "clips" has been shown to be either ignorant or fraudulent ). Then, if you don't like the criticism you dump people onto ignore.

Ats ok Jimmy , Ill quote what gunga says .

spendius
 
  1  
Sun 22 Dec, 2013 06:19 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
. Then, if you don't like the criticism you dump people onto ignore.


But you threatened me with that just yesterday fm. And, indeed, you have actually put me on Ignore from time to time for brief periods. To your eternal shame.

It's another example of people criticising an action and then blithely doing it themselves as soon as the need arises.

ci. criticised somebody recently for not answering questions. Can you believe that? And he hasn't been asked any difficult ones yet.
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 22 Dec, 2013 06:22 am
@spendius,
I have the impression that it is an habitual gambit with secularists.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 22 Dec, 2013 06:52 am
@spendius,
you get put on ignore to teach you to be civil. Every time someone puts you on ignore, I note that you respond after a while by becoming civil (if only for a short period). Gunga cant stand facts and science. He has no idea how to challenge beyond his favorite Creationist sites. You go on without any rudder so no one really minds too much, You are harmless with your own inanity. Gunga has the benefit of people spending lotsa good money on producing very slick pieces of garbage, and its hard for kids to see that Creationism is a joke that's sponsored by a minor religious affiliation. Its such a minor POV but well financed by several millenialist theologians.

Gunga and neo hve no idea about what they DONT know. Gunga spouts a kind of mish mash of critique of science without realizing that almost all the presumptive bases of these critiques are faulty to begin with.
Like saying that "geneticists" say that new genes don't arise
or

C14 can be used to analyze rocks and fossils older than about 4 or 5 half lives

or
Stegosaurs lived near the great lakes in the 1600's

or
There was a universal Flood.

He doesn't know that hes being buffaloed and his "lucy" like shouting of his curious (often fraudulent) worldview is really funny.

Its so silly that I fully xpect him to come along one day and tell us that hes really a geneticist who teaches at Wisconsin and hes just been dickin with us by presenting the most ludicrous of "data"
MichaelPascu
 
  1  
Sun 22 Dec, 2013 07:17 am
@JimmyJ,
Because people are inherently afraid of what they don't understand, and it's easier to close your eyes and pretend that you were made by a God - so your existence is relevant and was desired - rather than pure chance
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sun 22 Dec, 2013 07:17 am
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

I wrote:
I don't believe in evolution. Therefore, I have no burden of proof?
JimmyJ wrote:
YES!! That's right indeed! The burden of proof is on us, and we've done a great job at giving you evidence as has the scientific community. You stated earlier that you would not change your opinion regardless of what was presented, though, so our efforts are wasted.
Well, I was only asking because of the OP.

So, I guess I would have to say at this point is that I am impressed with the evidence presented, I can't see how it supports speciation.


I does not matter what you "believe", Neo...or what you guess.

But if you assert "Evolution is not the reason for where we are now"...you most assuredly would bear a burden of proof.

Jimmy cannot understand that, but Jimmy essentially is trying to walk without first mastering crawling.
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Sun 22 Dec, 2013 07:34 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
Ats ok Jimmy , Ill quote what gunga says .

Um ... won't Jimmy be able to see what gunga says without your help?
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 22 Dec, 2013 07:53 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Every time someone puts you on ignore, I note that you respond after a while by becoming civil (if only for a short period).


The only thing I think about someone putting me on Ignore is that they must be wimps. And I'm not averse to letting the thread know my contempt for them. I get less civil not more.

Whatever you note. Why do you make stuff up fm?

I have a rudder alright. That you're in denial of it or can't see what it is is not my problem. It's pretty obvious though.

Since when did you put harmless posters on Ignore?

You're all over the place like the spilled contents of the slop bucket.

0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 22 Dec, 2013 08:02 am
@MichaelPascu,
Quote:
Because people are inherently afraid of what they don't understand, and it's easier to close your eyes and pretend that you were made by a God - so your existence is relevant and was desired - rather than pure chance


The corollary is that believers in pure chance need another excuse to bring children into this weary world of woe and as they haven't got a plausible one logic renders them extinct.
0 Replies
 
 

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