132
   

Why do people deny evolution?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 10 Jun, 2014 11:42 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Now spendi will show up and admonish us to "get a room"


I will not. I'll leave it up to you to suggest that.

You don't know what sex is you little misogynist.

The least you could do is not invite us to imagine you and Set getting the leg over. That's sanitised indecent exposure.
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 10 Jun, 2014 11:55 am
@spendius,
You might say that the development of fighter planes and chariots is analogous.

And neither in any way analogous to a living creature.
0 Replies
 
Quehoniaomath
 
  1  
Tue 10 Jun, 2014 12:11 pm
Quote:
Berra's Blunder,

http://www.unm.edu/~hdelaney/corvettes.gif

But even if the fossil record were complete, and it preserved all the desired characters, it would not establish that homology is due to common ancestry. This problem was inadvertently illustrated by biologist Tim Berra in a 1990 book defending Darwinian evolution against creationist critics. Berra compared the fossil record to a series of automobile models: «If you compare a 1953 and a 1954 Corvette, side by side, then a 1954 and a 1955 model, and so on, the descent with modification is overwhelmingly obvious. This is what [paleontologists] do with fossils, and the evidence is so solid and comprehensive that it cannot be denied by reasonable people.» (emphasis in the original)
But Berra's analogy actually spotlights the problem of using a sequence of similarities as evidence for Darwin's theory. We all know that automobiles are manufactured according to archetypes (in this case, plans drawn up by engineers), so it is clear that there can be other explanations for a sequence of similarities besides descent with modification. In fact, most pre-Darwinian biologists would have explained such sequences by
something akin to automobile manufacturing—that is, creation by design. So although Berra believed he was defending Darwinian evolution against creationist explanations, he unwittingly showed that the fossil evidence is compatible with either. Law professor (and critic of Darwinism) Phillip E. Johnson dubbed this «Berra's Blunder.» (Figure 4-3)
Berra's Blunder demonstrates that a mere succession of similar forms does not furnish its own explanation. Something more is needed—a mechanism. In the case of Corvettes, the mechanism (human manufacturing) can be directly observed; but in a succession of fossils, it cannot. This is where Darwin's theory comes in. For Darwin, the mechanism is descent with modification. But «descent» and «modification» are merely words, unless they can be tied to actual biological processes.
Darwin realized this. He wrote in The Origin of Species that a naturalist reflecting on the geological evidence «might come to the conclusion that species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. Nevertheless, such a conclusion, even if well founded, would be unsatisfactory, until it could be shown how the innumerable species inhabiting this world have been modified.» Darwin concluded: «It is, therefore, of the highest importance

Icons of Evolution p 69
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 10 Jun, 2014 02:04 pm
@Quehoniaomath,
To get it straight,Q, so even fm can understand it, analogy refers to the functional similarity. Like when you let a blown up balloon go at a party and a jet plane skimming around the skies. The expulsion of gases from the end not being moved towards causes forward motion.

Or gills and lungs accessing oxygen along with all the other ****.

Homology is a morphological similarity. A repeated pattern in a growth cycle. We say, some of us, we are in the autumn of our lives. The appearance, after periods of indulgence, of a strong arm man to set things straight. Napoleon is often compared to Alexander.

Wings and arms are not analogous. No functional similarity to speak of if you leave chickens out of consideration. (Cluck, Cluck!!"), and fat women trying to run fast.

spendius
 
  1  
Tue 10 Jun, 2014 03:17 pm
@spendius,
We are in denial that we will go the way of all the other cultures and that we have already entered winter. Homology suggests it but analogy doesn't because no other culture had the homological warning we have had from our studies of history which enables us to function differently. We now know that the bigger they are the harder they fall. And that the easier things are the softer the heads get.

But we might not heed the warning. Then homology would be the winner and linked to things like ice-ages. Nothing Obarmy can do about it.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 10 Jun, 2014 04:28 pm
@Quehoniaomath,
Quote:
Something more is needed—a mechanism. In the case of Corvettes, the mechanism (human manufacturing) can be directly observed; but in a succession of fossils, it cannot. This is where Darwin's theory comes in. For Darwin, the mechanism is descent with modification.
Oh , a takeoff on Paleys clock on the heath

The only reason Quahogs Creationist friends believe that biology is like a mechanism of a corvettes "descent" Is because they NEED IT TO BE SO. EVidence doesn't support intervention of a designer. In fact , a design "influence" is conferred by species that produce a sizable number of offspring so that phenotypic modifications are minimally available to adapt and absorb that environmental change.

Phil Johnson is the same Johnson who allowed the conjoined term of Creationism.Intelligent design to remain in "Of Pandas And People" which was a self pubished Creationist argument for biology based upon Genesis and which is bought hook line and sinker by the Quahogs.

Evolution is visible every day. Macro evolution does, of course happen in generations but examples of it, like the growing fossil record, are showing up in lab and field.




The story of the Menhaden (an anadromous fish) of the Connecticut River is getting interesting. Dams on the Connecticut river were built in the early 1700's to power grain mills and early fulling mills. Some menhaden were trapped behind the dams and the founer populations were not allowed to get back to the Atlantic after breeding. The resulting generatuions of Landlocked menhaden have developed beyond the species level and have resulted in size and shape differentiated "New" species. The most interesting thing is the development of "Gill rakers" like Baleen for straining algae and copepods from the fresh water of the Connecticut River.
In less than 350 years we are seeing actual speciation (mqcrovolution) visible with these trapped menhaden. The studies go on but , like the Finches of the Galapogos that the ornithologists from Princeton have been studying for the last 50 years, we can see speciation and evolution in our lifetimes or at least in historical time.
Most Creationists will deny all this but as the data from the above, as well as that of Mammoth v Carlsbad cave fish, isolated wolves of , Allegheny Cave rats, Kaibab Squirrels etc all show, evolution is real and denial of it is really dumb religion an science.

spendius
 
  1  
Tue 10 Jun, 2014 05:06 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
like the growing fossil record,


That sounds bad news for the taxpayers.

I don't include people being taxed on earnings derived from taxpayers unless taxpayers benefit from the work done which I don't think is the case with a growing fossil record. That sound like the Darwin technique of piling it up for the sake of piling it up higher.

Quote:
. In fact


Are there any facts here that are not carefully selected amd manicured to try to prove that Christian inhibitions on dick-swishing are out of date? Which may well be the case and I am looking forward to discussing the matter.
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 10 Jun, 2014 05:16 pm
@spendius,
It would be hard to deny that those who think the Christian inhibitions on dick-swishing are out of date are in the evolutionist camp and those who think they still have utility are on the other side.
0 Replies
 
Quehoniaomath
 
  1  
Tue 10 Jun, 2014 11:58 pm
@farmerman,
you still don't get it.
There is NO EVIDENCE for (macro)evolution

that's really all there is to it.

If you never had heard of this theory and it was presented now to you, or other biologist for that matter, they would laugh in your face. They won't accept it!
And rightly so! There is NO EVIDENCE.
Quehoniaomath
 
  1  
Wed 11 Jun, 2014 12:03 am
Quote:
In less than 350 years we are seeing actual speciation (mqcrovolution) visible with these trapped menhaden. The studies go on but , like the Finches of the Galapogos that the ornithologists from Princeton have been studying for the last 50 years, we can see speciation and evolution in our lifetimes or at least in historical time.


Man, that's the whole point!
To what have these Finches evolved???? Finches!!!!!!!!
That is NOT macro-evolution.

Quote:
at least in historical time.


Your projecting what might happen in the future from a theory!
That is NO EVIDENCE

a child will understand that!

It really is just your wishfull thinking. You see what you want to see.

But you are not free to think. How much have you spend for your education?
a few thousand dollars?
Ok, well than you probably don't want to see that you have been paying for being lied too! It's difficult, I understand!
It's called "cognitive dissonance"
farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 11 Jun, 2014 03:44 am
@Quehoniaomath,
Quote:
And rightly so! There is NO EVIDENCE.
Says the one who reads all he can find from Creationist presses.
Pardon me if I believe your agendas are showing
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 11 Jun, 2014 03:54 am
@Quehoniaomath,
how much did you spend for your education?. Not even for a library card.?


Menhaden had evolved at above the species level and the finches (in 50 years) had speciated.

Your argument that they are still finches is very Duane Gish-like, another idiot whos unable to understand data that gets in the way of his religion.

You are saying that macro evolution cannot be seen. Ive given you two examples of evolution at and above the species level. THATS MAYRS DEFINITION OF MACRO-EVOLUTION (no matter what you care to assert). You don't mind that your worldview is hypocrisy in action. "Anything to try to deny evolution"




Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Wed 11 Jun, 2014 03:55 am
All Dawkins has to do is conclusively PROVE that evolution is a solid cast-iron fact, but he's obviously failed to do that or we wouldn't be having debates like this..Smile
No kidding, I bought his 'Climbing Mt Improbable' some years ago and was amazed at how sloppy it was, full of unsupported guesses and hunches.
Come on Dicky, you'll have to do better than that to convince us..Smile
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 11 Jun, 2014 04:10 am
@farmerman,
In what way is that answering the thread title?

I have provided 20 reasons why people deny evolution and you have offered none. You're trolling as usual.

Reason 21--people deny evolution because they notice that people who don't deny evolution can't even read thread titles.

Who is "MAYRS" and what does his definition have to do with macro evolution? What is macro evolution?

spendius
 
  1  
Wed 11 Jun, 2014 04:17 am
@spendius,
Quote:
As Ernst W. Mayr observes, "transspecific evolution is nothing but an extrapolation and magnification of the events that take place within populations and species...it is misleading to make a distinction between the causes of micro- and macroevolution”.
farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 11 Jun, 2014 04:18 am
@spendius,
So should I ignore the haplessly ignorant Quahog? and only focus on you? You will always find ways to direct the light back on you . Here you are now reminding me that youre complying with the OP when a few pages back you were complaining about how your "views from social sciences" are being ignored.
What is it you really want?

Not getting any?
Beer flat?
Quahog upstaging you for class mantra moaner?
farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 11 Jun, 2014 04:21 am
@Romeo Fabulini,
have you anything to say about your previous request about bird reptile intermediate fossils? I can find a several other examples but I feel youll just ignore the evidence and try to divert your thrust fom Genesis to another subject as you have apparently lost that argument.

Just checking.
Dawkins is our free thinker. We may not like the way he says stuff but hes never been proven wrong
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 11 Jun, 2014 04:27 am
@spendius,
Mayr is correct in his statement. He said it out(more likely) of frustration because the CREATIONISTS had tried to make the two issues separable in science. That way they can stipulate to one form of evolution (evolution at the subspecies level) and still maintaining denial of evolution t higher taxa.

Macro evolution usually involves some genetic change in the "bookkeeping of species" whereas micro in almost all cases, does
not .

farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 11 Jun, 2014 04:32 am
@Quehoniaomath,
   http://www.unm.edu/~hdelaney/corvettes.gif Im confused with your ultimate position, because youre like a water drop on a hotplate.

DO you deny evidence of derived species from the example of the Corvette?

OR

Do you accept evolution as shown in the derived "species" of the corvette but state that its only possible because of "Intelligent Design"

I don't think you can have it both ways if you really wish to be honest.


So what is it
1DENIAL?
2EVOLUTION OCCURS BUT ITS ID DRIVEN?
Quehoniaomath
 
  1  
Wed 11 Jun, 2014 04:33 am
@farmerman,
Wink Sorry, can't take you seriously anymore.

Bye.
 

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