6
   

should we focus on vandalism more than other crimes and why

 
 
Reply Mon 9 Dec, 2013 04:31 am
do you bealive we should pay more atention to vandalism rather than gun crime
 
View best answer, chosen by josh1414
raprap
 
  3  
Reply Mon 9 Dec, 2013 04:48 am
@josh1414,
Vandalism generally is a property crime--gun crimes tend to involve personal assault.

The answer is obvious to the 99%, unfortunately the 1% is only concerned about property and they control the police and the courts.

Rap
0 Replies
 
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Dec, 2013 02:17 pm
@josh1414,
I'd disagree with Rap above. Vandalism is probably a function mostly of youth so if we could concentrate on its prevention through educational means then we might belay crime of other sorts, including murder

I'd approach it at the grade-school or even kindergarten level, before a teenhood when they're largely irreversible. Problem is, however, the Establishment, especially its right wing, underestimates these kids, supposing that teaching about something is the same as advocating it and so they're stuck with the three R's until it's too late
roger
 
  0  
Reply Mon 9 Dec, 2013 03:13 pm
@dalehileman,
Good point, Dale.
dalehileman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 9 Dec, 2013 05:01 pm
@roger,
Thank you Josh
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Dec, 2013 03:28 am
@dalehileman,
Err...those that become vandals tend to not want to listen in school.

School also should be for giving an education (one that enables higher learning)...not teaching them about life (which is what parents should be there for).

If the US is anything like Australia, then school childrens reading / writing / maths already suffers enough due to the load of non core curriculum. And you want to put more on to them...targeting the ones least interested and / or most disruptive? (ie. the ones that will take the most time to teach, taking away time from those who want to learn?)

Stop passing the buck to government, and put responsibility for this squarely back where it belongs - on the parents.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Dec, 2013 06:12 am
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:
Stop passing the buck to government, and put responsibility for this squarely back where it belongs - on the parents.


So you'll be able to point fingers, but not be any closer to a solution. Do you really expect dysfunctional parents to get their act together just because you say it's their responsibility?

vik wrote:
Err...those that become vandals tend to not want to listen in school.


I disagree, it's far wider than that, it's generally a phase we all go through. I did a bit of writing on walls myself when I was 13/14. I don't do it now.
0 Replies
 
dalehileman
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Dec, 2013 01:20 pm
@vikorr,
Thank you Vik for your input, from which I deduct you lean also in other respects to the right: So am I wrong

…..the main problem being the utter failure of parents
vikorr
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Dec, 2013 02:17 pm
@dalehileman,
Hi Dalehileman, I don't think I've ever been pigeon holed properly. And I don't consider myself either conservative or radical...I believe in balance of rights between the community and the individual, and I believe in self responsibility (which encompasses much more than most people think).

Because of that, I don't think the govt should be here to fix every persons problems - the way I see it, the more you attempt to fix, the more people expect you to fix, the more people blame the govt (or others) for their every little problem - which as you no doubt see, removes self responsibility, which I think is counterproductive to human growth (and society).

I find the western world has an unhealthy attachment to the govt fixing their personal problems, while feeling an ever growing sense of entitlement...then complaining that the govt is getting into debt, and is too intrusive (and yet these things are intrinsically linked)

Govt can be there to assist those who want to be assisted (eg. by providing govt run tuition at schools, after hours - catering to those who wish to attend and learn). But it shouldn't be there to attempt to 'force fix' childrens problems at the detriment of all those who wish to learn.

Hi Izzy, I think this post will probably have answered your post as well - we may disagree on some points, but that's okay.

Oh, and just in case it isn't clear, because you mentioned 'point the finger'. I don't subscribe to 'blame', which is almost always wrong-minded, and almost always counterproductive. I subscribe to understanding contributing circumstances, and learning self responsibility. None of that involves 'pointing the finger' (which involves an attitude of blame - which usually denies both understanding, and contributing circumstances)
dalehileman
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Dec, 2013 02:49 pm
@vikorr,
Quote:
I don't subscribe to 'blame'
Respect your viewpoint Vik but blame the failure of educational systems worldwide, "The Establishment," for 97 percent of the world's ills. As I've heard it expressed, "The trouble with our schools is they don't teach you how to live"

Maybe courses could be offered with parental permission to bypass, but don't think The Right would stand for it, while The Left might object on the basis that opting out might victimize the poor kids who are excluded. So don't worry Vik, in other words it ain 't gonna happen
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Dec, 2013 03:25 pm
@dalehileman,
Quote:
"The trouble with our schools is they don't teach you how to live"
This was one of the points of my last post.

Up until recently (relative to world history, and staring around the late 80's) it was always the responsibility of the parents, and it worked well (good parents brought up good children). So why is it suddenly now the govt's responsibility? And why are govts to 'blame' of parents giving up on their responsibilities to teach their children about life? The quote is a victim attitude from people who can't be bothered doing something that is completely within their power to do for themselves, and their children (and if they don't have a clue, even the poorest can almost always afford a few books from amazon)

My take is 'the trouble with schools is that they try to teach children how to live, and in doing so, fail more often at teaching them the foundations of education'
Quote:
blame... "The Establishment," for 97 percent of the world's ills
They certainly bear responsibility for a high percentage, and they've contributed to a great portion of the remaining percentage. I doubt it's anywhere near 97%. But that topic is a whole thread in itself.
ossobuco
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Dec, 2013 03:31 pm
@roger,
Agree, good post Dale.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Dec, 2013 03:36 pm
Uh, this subject is part of the moves in police departments, not started by Bratton, but very much enhanced successfully in two major cities by him. There was a writer (name fails me, but I'd recognize it) who I take it inspired Bratton, who has just in the last week or two been named the new and again New York City police chief.

There are probably endless links to all of this.

Here's a start - I haven't read it, having read about all this at length before.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Bratton
ossobuco
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Dec, 2013 03:51 pm
@ossobuco,
Just read the wiki - just not one person developing this concept.


Laughs, I'd so like to have my Jane Jacobs book back - leant it to an urban architect, even then a well worn, by me, paperback and of course never saw it again.
0 Replies
 
dalehileman
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Dec, 2013 05:56 pm
@vikorr,
Quote:
and it worked well (good parents brought up good children)
Yes Vic but they number so few

Quote:
So why is it suddenly now the govt's responsibility?
How else

Quote:
And why are govts to 'blame' of parents giving up on their responsibilities to teach their children about life?
Because given such a massive failure of an institution our only evident recourse is the State's

Quote:
who can't be bothered doing something that is completely within their power to do for themselves,
But they simply don't know what to do

Quote:
their children (and if they don't have a clue, even the poorest can almost always afford a few books from amazon)
Sure I agree, nothing wrong with encouraging kids to read more; but do you see it happening

Quote:
I doubt it's anywhere near 97%.
Okay, 95.4%

Quote:
But that topic is a whole thread in itself.
Yes Vic. Do feel freee to start one
vikorr
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Dec, 2013 07:08 pm
@dalehileman,
Quote:
because given such a massive failure of an institution our only evident recourse is the State's
that will be a worse failure....creating a culture of blame, buck passing, and no responsibility for your own children always is....just as such a culture will be a worse failure in any endeavour.

Quote:
But they simply don't know what to do
They can learn...they just don't want to enough. Again, buck passing.

Seriously, in 9 months, they can't go out and learn as much as they can about parenting? They can't in the 3 years after that, not learn?

And so you want to both pass the buck to the govt, and then blame the govt when it inevitably fails (as a whole) at something that should be the parents responsibility?
ossobuco
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Dec, 2013 07:13 pm
@vikorr,
I'd like to hear real life stuff and not bravado.
vikorr
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Dec, 2013 07:19 pm
@ossobuco,
Hi Osso...not a single thing here is 'Bravado'...I passionately believe in self responsibility. Everywhere you see crime...you also see people who don't take responsibility for their lives.

Everywhere you see people who take responsibility for their lives...you see well rounded, respectful people (this is like the previous paragraph, a generalisation).

People who don't want to be 'fixed' rarely get 'fixed'...but people with problems who want help, should always be able to find it.

By the way...I did offer my real life solution to the education question - which is what we were talking about. Did you not see it?

We've since been talking about the philosophy behind such ideas.
vikorr
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Dec, 2013 07:46 pm
@vikorr,
I'm currently reminded of the saying 'give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime'...it seems the current consensus is that the govt should give the man a fish.

Another way of phrasing it 'teach a man who wants help with his problem, and he learns skills for a lifetime'...'teach a man who doesn't want help (with his problem), and he finds someone to blame when he fails/things go wrong'
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Dec, 2013 08:15 pm
@vikorr,
That's because you were taught self responsibility..
 

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