8
   

morality, drugs, existence

 
 
carnaticmystery
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Dec, 2013 06:58 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Yes it is, as is its opposite, that 'reality' as we perceive it does not exist.

ahh. this is where it gets interesting. i totally agree that 'reality does not exist' is also an assumption. but i am not making that assumption, i am arriving at that possibility through the negation of the first assumption, that reality does exist. everyone makes that assumption, so why not negate it? in the process of negating, you certainly get to a point where the opposite 'assumption' becomes clearly evident.
Quote:
What problem arises when assuming 'the reality of reality' so to speak??? (Truth is elusive, and 'presence' you'll need to explain for I don't know what you mean by that word.)

you were the one that claimed that i had a problem, i simply said problems can only exist in duality. but certainly many 'problems' can arise when assuming the 'reality of reality'; the obvious limitation they place on the mind and the experience of life.

truth is elusive? how? truth as we can understand it is simply perception. what you perceive, is truth. that is what we can assume. if you are saying it is elusive, then you are agreeing with my theory that 'there is no truth'. so why do you even say 'truth is elusive', you are basically supporting my argument.

presence simply means 'being present' or 'being in existence here', as opposed to being absent or 'not there'.

what is present is referred to as 'i' in english, and is simply the identity aspect of consciousness, which dissolves by itself when it is no longer needed. does the possibility of knowing identities go away? no, it is an eternal possibility and will of course continue. but the attachment to any identity is gone, identities may or may not appear to exist endlessly, in an eternal game of alternating reality/non-reality, existence/non-existence.
carnaticmystery
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Dec, 2013 07:04 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Therefore, assuming OBL is behind 9/11 is racist, according to you, because it's possible some US businessman did it...

assuming anything about a race is racist. i don't assume that muslims did it, because i accept i don't know. i may say muslims did it offhandedly, because i know most people accept and believe that and i don't care either way.

anyway, you are racist, it has been well established simply due to your beyond fathomably idiotic understanding of rape, and under-reporting. there is no possible reason to think it is more in india than USA, other than racism.

not that i care, because so-called racism is also another natural aspect of intelligence, it is just identifying with your own beliefs coming from your own race, and therefore naturally opposing other beliefs from other races. you can only actually be non-racist if you have no identity as any particular race.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Dec, 2013 07:43 pm
@carnaticmystery,
I don't assume anything about any race. You said 'the Arabs did it' and I said no to that. It so happens that the people who most probably did this are Arabs, but the Arab 'race' have nothing to see with it.

The Indian police is frequently accused of rape itself, so how do they report that? It does not seem to take the matter very seriously either, judging from the news:

Raped minor forced to strip at police station
TImes of India, Sep 25, 2013, 04.51AM IST

LUCKNOW: A 14-year-old girl was allegedly asked to strip in front of cops at a police station in Kushinagar district of eastern Uttar Pradesh to convince them that her allegations of rape were genuine and not concocted. This happened after the initial attempts of the girl's father to get the complaint registered proved futile after he failed to pay Rs 50,000 to the police-the price they allegedly demanded to register the complaint and arrest the accused.

After the media queries from senior officials on Tuesday, however, the Kushinagar police swung into action and rounded up the accused even before approaching the girl's family to register their complaint.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2013-09-25/lucknow/42392473_1_police-station-police-officer-girl

---------

Indian police chief's rape analogy causes outrage across country

Ranjit Sinha, head of India's Central Bureau of Investigation, apologises for remark about unlicensed betting
Wednesday 13 November 2013 05.06 EST

One of India's most senior policemen has been forced to apologise after comparing rape to unlicensed betting which, because it cannot be prevented, should be enjoyed.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/13/prevent-rape-enjoy-it-india-police-chief
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Dec, 2013 08:11 pm
@carnaticmystery,
carnaticmystery wrote:

Quote:
Yes it is, as is its opposite, that 'reality' as we perceive it does not exist.

ahh. this is where it gets interesting. i totally agree that 'reality does not exist' is also an assumption. but i am not making that assumption, i am arriving at that possibility through the negation of the first assumption, that reality does exist. everyone makes that assumption, so why not negate it? in the process of negating, you certainly get to a point where the opposite 'assumption' becomes clearly evident.

So if everyone was making the assumption that nothing exists, you'd certainly get to a point where the opposite 'assumption' that stuff actually exist becomes clearly evident?.. Because that pretty much defines my philosophical position on this board... :-)

Quote:
certainly many 'problems' can arise when assuming the 'reality of reality'; the obvious limitation they place on the mind and the experience of life.

Ignoring your own limits is your most obvious limit...

Quote:
truth is elusive? how? truth as we can understand it is simply perception. what you perceive, is truth. that is what we can assume. if you are saying it is elusive, then you are agreeing with my theory that 'there is no truth'. so why do you even say 'truth is elusive', you are basically supporting my argument.

Nope. I am just presenting my own view, my own (western) version of your existential anguish. Truth is elusive, doubt is omnipotent. Socrates put it best: 'all I know is that I know nothing.' Kant elaborated that our mind can only access phenomena, appearances, and can never perceive the essence of things, their 'noumena'. That is beyond us, by virtue or fault of our own essence as 'minds'. In this view, there is a radical divide between the material world and the mind. It's a form of radical dualism therefore. The mind will never ever understand the universe fully. The best we can do is approach its appearance, asymptotically (closer and closer). That's exactly what science does, according to Popper, it works by trial and error, not by assuming to know the essence of things and deriving their behavior from such ontological insight.

But others disagree and point out to the importance of intuition as a force to reckon with.

Quote:
presence simply means 'being present' or 'being in existence here', as opposed to being absent or 'not there'.

what is present is referred to as 'i' in english, and is simply the identity aspect of consciousness, which dissolves by itself when it is no longer needed.

Hmmm... The I is indeed present (and needed, and cannot be supressed anyway) but nobody I know is 'there' yet... We're not 'there' in the world, technically speaking we are out, looking in. See above Kant's and Popper's epistemology.
carnaticmystery
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Dec, 2013 12:42 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
I don't assume anything about any race. You said 'the Arabs did it' and I said no to that. It so happens that the people who most probably did this are Arabs, but the Arab 'race' have nothing to see with it.

what do you mean the arab race has 'nothing to see with it'. makes no sense. you were just trying to prove a stupid point that saying 'the muslims' is worse than saying 'some muslims', and it proves your superiority, shows that i am racist, or some nonsense.

Quote:
The Indian police is frequently accused of rape itself, so how do they report that? It does not seem to take the matter very seriously either, judging from the news:

you are beyond words, the stupidity. and you actually bothered to provide examples. so you think no police officers of other races ever rape. they all take rape so much more seriously, perfect humans, they never rape anyone. i am not even going to bother finding examples as you have wasted time doing. your racism is nice and deep, enjoy it.
0 Replies
 
carnaticmystery
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Dec, 2013 01:33 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
So if everyone was making the assumption that nothing exists, you'd certainly get to a point where the opposite 'assumption' that stuff actually exist becomes clearly evident?.. Because that pretty much defines my philosophical position on this board.

if everyone assumed nothing exists, they are all stupid. i am not doing that at all. furthermore, if you do assume nothing exists, you do not at all get to any opposite point where things actually exist. you can find things appearing to exist, but if you question further, it was always be an infinite questioning, so no, you do not finally arrive at knowing that things exist.
Quote:
Ignoring your own limits is your most obvious limit...

no limits exist in the entire universe, proven scientifically, educate yourself. all limits are relative and conceptual only. on that level, yes there are billions of limits and yes you can think i am very limited in ignoring my own limits. but the truth of limitlessness in all experience eternally never changes.

Quote:
Nope. I am just presenting my own view, my own (western) version of your existential anguish.

i have zero anguish, non-existence does not leave room for anguish.

Quote:
Truth is elusive, doubt is omnipotent.

yes, and this is a very basic intellectual level which will certainly evolve further in you in good time. who knows, maybe 5 years, 500 years, but doubt eventually ends and truth is paradoxically found as absence of truth.
Quote:
Socrates put it best: 'all I know is that I know nothing.' Kant elaborated that our mind can only access phenomena, appearances, and can never perceive the essence of things, their 'noumena'. That is beyond us, by virtue or fault of our own essence as 'minds'. In this view, there is a radical divide between the material world and the mind. It's a form of radical dualism therefore. The mind will never ever understand the universe fully. The best we can do is approach its appearance, asymptotically (closer and closer). That's exactly what science does, according to Popper, it works by trial and error, not by assuming to know the essence of things and deriving their behavior from such ontological insight.

i could say i agree with everything you have written there. unfortunately it does not contradict anything i am saying. i am never assuming to know anything, nor deriving any behaviour about anything. the noumenon you describe is clearly defined by non dualists as the ultimate truth, brahman in hinduism, many non dualists use the very word noumenon to describe it.
Quote:
Hmmm... The I is indeed present (and needed, and cannot be supressed anyway) but nobody I know is 'there' yet... We're not 'there' in the world, technically speaking we are out, looking in. See above Kant's and Popper's epistemology.
But others disagree and point out to the importance of intuition as a force to reckon with.

i never said we are there in the world, nor we are out looking in. there is no us or world other than a limited, time-bound perception as such existing in eternal awareness.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Dec, 2013 09:31 am
Why do mystics think they sound profound?

Or an even better question: Why do pseudo-mystics think they sound profound?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Dec, 2013 09:32 am
Anyone who thought of answering: "I give up. Why?"...

...gets my point.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Dec, 2013 10:35 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Why do pseudo-mystics think they sound profound?


How do you know they think they do? Won't they more likely be using a battery of rhetorical gestures which they have been led by the evidence to think that to others sound profound?

After all, if some actors can play mystics then real mystics must be able to do it better.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Dec, 2013 10:44 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Anyone who thought of answering: "I give up. Why?"...

...gets my point.


With just 1 minute for us to answer it's just another simple way of marking your own exam papers.

I think some of us might have got the point.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Dec, 2013 11:22 am
@carnaticmystery,
Quote:
there is no us or world

Okay, I'll take your word for it... Rolling Eyes
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Dec, 2013 11:30 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
there is no us or world

Okay, I'll take your word for it... Rolling Eyes


Wink

Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Dec, 2013 01:55 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Hey Frank, you missed a great occasion to gang up on me, at the The Great Christmas Debate thread...
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Dec, 2013 02:02 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Hey Frank, you missed a great occasion to gang up on me, at the The Great Christmas Debate thread...


Don't want to do that, Olivier. We disagree on some thing...but on others I am totally in your camp.

That is the case here.

CM is out near Neptune right now...and heading away from the sun.

You gotta love anyone putting so much energy into the idea that nothing is here, though!
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Dec, 2013 02:03 pm
@Frank Apisa,
By the way...what is the Christmas debate thread?
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Dec, 2013 02:42 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Got myself in a fight about the percentage of words of French origin in the English language... Wanna make a guess what the correct answer is?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Dec, 2013 02:43 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Got myself in a fight about the percentage of words of French origin in the English language... Wanna make a guess what the correct answer is?


Got no idea at all...but I know there are some...and perhaps many.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Dec, 2013 03:13 pm
@Frank Apisa,
The % depends on what dictionary you use, but the best estimate I arrived at is 41% of the 10,000 most frequently used English words are borrowed from French.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Dec, 2013 03:19 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

The % depends on what dictionary you use, but the best estimate I arrived at is 41% of the 10,000 most frequently used English words are borrowed from French.


Holy moley. I never woulda guessed anywhere near that high.

One of the words borrowed from the French...which they got from the Greek...is the word "atheist." I've discussed the etymology of the word several times here in A2K.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Dec, 2013 03:25 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Well, they are all pretty much under shock over there... after calling me a clown for several days, they now realize they had no idea where their own language comes from.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.99 seconds on 12/23/2024 at 05:09:29