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morality, drugs, existence

 
 
Reply Sun 27 Oct, 2013 07:16 am
the pathway of non duality leads to an eternal abyss of nothingness, in which anything goes, and ideas such as morality can become very skewed, if not completely vanish. with the absence of any morality, drug use can only become more common. is there any need to address issues such as heavy drug use? does existence have any meaning? the emptiness of non duality appears to prove categorically that the answer is no.
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Oct, 2013 07:31 am
@carnaticmystery,
Quote:
the pathway of non duality leads to an eternal abyss of nothingness


Why ? Not in my understanding of the term.
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Oct, 2013 02:12 pm
@fresco,
Me neither Fres. I sort of know what duality is, but…….
0 Replies
 
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Oct, 2013 02:17 pm
@carnaticmystery,
Quote:
…..does existence have any meaning?
To me, Car, and my fellow apodictical existential pantheists it does. Recent scientific studies in interaction between physical objects and constants suggest that things have been set up specifically to permit our evolution but in which good and bad are involved only peripherally

I'd expand on this theme but I evidently tend to bore. You can ask us specific q's however, and if you like to chat on matters other, especially beer tasting, I am (really) [email protected] and apparently don't care who knows it
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Oct, 2013 03:36 pm
@dalehileman,
Quote:
things have been set up specifically to permit our evolution


what if evolution is merely the opportunistic adaptation to any new set of "things"
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Oct, 2013 04:23 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
what if evolution is merely the opportunistic adaptation to any new set of "things"
Oh I'm sure it is. Among this set are the charge of the electron, the grav constant, and gosh knows what else. The following might bear on our assertions, might not

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 27 Oct, 2013 05:41 pm
@dalehileman,
Now you seem to disagree with yourself.

HMMMMM

What is it that "permits" evolution?? Arent we being a little predestination bound with that??
carnaticmystery
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Oct, 2013 01:10 am
@fresco,
Quote:
Why ? Not in my understanding of the term.

because if everything is one, then to even assert that the one exists is counter-intuitive. how can the one exist; in relation to what else? anything else is also part of the one. therefore, its very existence is questionable. and even if we accept that this one exists, how could it possibly have a point? you say that science is proving that there is a correlation between particle movement and evolution, that the universe may have been designed to support evolution. but the very ideas of particles, movement, and evolution, are simply theories posed by humans who have been observing this 'universe'. seeing as the whole thing is working as one unitary movement, one can come up with infinite definitions for phenomena such as evolution, particle theories etc. however the fundamental truth is that absolutely nothing actually exists beyond this One ineffable 'thing' which we could call god, existence, reality etc. and when the truth of this fact really hits home hard deep inside your consciousness, it really does throw all concepts such as morality out the window.
carnaticmystery
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Oct, 2013 01:15 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
What is it that "permits" evolution?? Arent we being a little predestination bound with that??

see, the idea that evolution is a special phenomenon is only based in a dualistic point of view, as is the idea of destiny.
if there is only ONE, as non duality suggests, then the very processes which appear to be evolution or destiny are simply observed phenomenon, happening in the singly, unitary movement of life. if there is no question of something else having happened, or whether it was 'supposed' to happen or not, then the question of evolution or destiny do not arise.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Oct, 2013 04:37 am
@carnaticmystery,
Quote:
the pathway of non duality leads to an eternal abyss of nothingness


It does not. It leads to unification of concepts in your mind, expanding you awareness and understanding, strengthening your intuition and giving an ability to mindfully navigate between perspectives that you would otherwise be locked into.
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Oct, 2013 10:26 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Now you seem to disagree with yourself.
Not if you think of Her, It, the Whole Shebang, as Her body and all the activity therein Her thinking

Quote:
Quote:
What is it that "permits" evolution??
The way things are

Arent we being a little predestination bound with that??
Again yes, Man, quite so. Things (Hers) are the way they are because that's the way they have (She has) to be. Doubtless most of Its (Her) earlier productions were very similar, other planets experience evolution just as we have, starting with stirrings in the slime and ending with a nuclear blowout
0 Replies
 
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Oct, 2013 10:43 am
@carnaticmystery,
Quote:
Why ? Not in my understanding of the term.

Quote:
because if everything is one, then to even assert that the one exists is counter-intuitive.
Not to some of us

Quote:
how can the one exist; in relation to what else?
I can't see how it has to exist in relation to something else, unless you mean nothingness

Quote:
anything else is also part of the one.
Not if it doesn't exist. Now we might have a discussion about creation, etc, which some of us dismiss simply by suggesting that It, Her, has always been, out of a kind of logical necessity

Quote:
therefore, its very existence is questionable.
Assuming you mean"anything else", that is nothingness, then yes, just as I (we, the pantheists) assert

Quote:
and even if we accept that this one exists,
Not sure at this point however what's meant by "this one". If instead of nothingness you mean It, She, Us, at this moment, you're in a logical limbo required to define "existence," which seems a wasteful exercise

Quote:
how could it possibly have a point?
Now you've deviated sideways into semantics, just as with "existence"

Quote:
you say that science is proving that there is a correlation between particle movement and evolution, that the universe may have been designed to support evolution.
Yes, well put, Car

Quote:
but the very ideas of particles, movement, and evolution, are simply theories posed by humans who have been observing this 'universe'.
Yes but don't you think, Car, that it hangs together pretty well

Quote:
seeing as the whole thing is working as one unitary movement, one can come up with infinite definitions for phenomena such as evolution, particle theories etc.
I don't see how. Theories with contradictions and paradox are probably false; those that hang together well, probably true

Quote:
however the fundamental truth is that absolutely nothing actually exists beyond this One ineffable 'thing' which we could call god, existence, reality, etc.
Yea, Car, exactly what we're trying to express. Well said

Quote:
and when the truth of this fact really hits home hard deep inside your consciousness, it really does throw all concepts such as morality out the window.
Agreed to the extent that much of "morality" and the like is purely relative. The Eastern cultures probably think its perfectly moral to mistreat women, while the porker might argue that his treatment by us is the height of immorality

Thus what we call "morality" is simply part of evolution, the race protecting itself from self-destriuction
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Oct, 2013 10:52 am
@carnaticmystery,
Quote:
see, the idea that evolution is a special phenomenon is only based in a dualistic point of view, as is the idea of destiny.
Well put., Car. We seem to agree wholeheartedly on most such points


Quote:
if there is only ONE, as non duality suggests, then the very processes which appear to be evolution or destiny are simply observed phenomenon, happening in the singly, unitary movement of life.
I'd disagree insofar as much is yet to be learned. The principle to which the apodictical existential pantheist subscribes, suggests that there is indeed something "special" about the humanoid

Quote:
if there is no question of something else having happened, or whether it was 'supposed' to happen or not, then the question of evolution or destiny do not arise.
The q or course is how the heavy, black, singular homogenous substance evolves into electrons, positrons, protons, etc, and how the logical requirement for a humanoid arises from it
0 Replies
 
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Oct, 2013 10:55 am
@Cyracuz,
Quote:
the pathway of non duality leads to an eternal abyss of nothingness

Quote:
It does not.
Of course it doesn't; simply 'cause there's no such thing as nothingness

Quote:
It leads to unification of concepts in your mind, expanding you awareness…...that you would otherwise be locked into.
Well put Cyr
0 Replies
 
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Oct, 2013 10:55 am
@Cyracuz,
Quote:
the pathway of non duality leads to an eternal abyss of nothingness

Quote:
It does not.
Of course it doesn't; simply 'cause there's no such thing as nothingness

Quote:
It leads to unification of concepts in your mind, expanding you awareness…...that you would otherwise be locked into.
Well put Cyr

You and I and Car are apparently on the same track, with differences largely semantic
0 Replies
 
carnaticmystery
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Oct, 2013 01:46 am
@Cyracuz,
Quote:
It does not. It leads to unification of concepts in your mind, expanding you awareness and understanding, strengthening your intuition and giving an ability to mindfully navigate between perspectives that you would otherwise be locked into.


see, to me, these are all ideas: that you have unification of concepts in your mind, expanding awareness, strengthening intuition, and ability to mindfully navigate between perspectives.

i agree that all these 'phenomena' appear to happen to people, including myself, at certain stages in their lives. but in my opinion, these are all passing, transitory states in consciousness, still part of the game of duality.

while i can honestly say i feel i am experiencing unified concepts, expanded awareness, heightened intuition and mindfulness, these thoughts never occurred to me until you phrased things this way. so my point is, there are millions of ways of describing this one 'concept', but essentially, it is NOTHINGNESS, or at least that is the best word in the english language that I am aware of to describe it. i agree that words like god and enlightenment can come close to describing it, but due to their strong POSITIVE connotations, i feel these words are actually misleading, due to the extreme neutrality of this nothingness i am trying to describe.
carnaticmystery
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Oct, 2013 02:07 am
@dalehileman,
Quote:
because if everything is one, then to even assert that the one exists is counter-intuitive.

Quote:
Not to some of us

this is just word play. if you want to assert that One thing exists, ok you can. but it just seems pointless, if its really true that there is NOTHING ELSE outside this one.
Quote:
I can't see how it has to exist in relation to something else, unless you mean nothingness

no...nothingness is also part of the One. i am saying including everything into One thing pretty much changes the perspective one has of what the One thing is. and nothingness becomes a better way of actually describing this apparent 'One'.
Quote:
Not if it doesn't exist. Now we might have a discussion about creation, etc, which some of us dismiss simply by suggesting that It, Her, has always been, out of a kind of logical necessity

see what do you mean by existing, and not existing. those very concepts necessarily imply some primary existence or form of existence. and within this, things can exist or not exist. but if we are saying that everything that could POSSIBLY exist is all one unitary thing, then what is the question of things not existing? if something 'exists' it is part of the one thing. if things don't exist, they just don't exist, what is the problem? this gets back to my original point that existence itself is a pointless concept. nothingness prevails always.
Quote:
but the very ideas of particles, movement, and evolution, are simply theories posed by humans who have been observing this 'universe'.

Quote:
Yes but don't you think, Car, that it hangs together pretty well

i am simply saying that WHAT HANGS TOGETHER WELL is just a bunch of words to describe things we see. those words have become more complex now. so instead of green tree, it has become an exact species of tree with various exact frequencies of light and with vast amounts of exact knowledge about this green tree. and then it is that the particles within the green tree have this and that property. blah blah. that was my point. you can go into infinite complexity in DESCRIBING anything we see in this 'universe'. and develop academic schools of study to describe them better, such as quantum physics, nuclear medicine, this that blah blah. i am not disputing the accuracy of science, i am simply saying it is operating within a limited framework. human consciousness, and the various presumptions that go with that, such as the assumed primary existence of a physical universe etc.
Quote:
Theories with contradictions and paradox are probably false; those that hang together well, probably true

theories are always changing. the greatest theories of today will easily be proven false in 1000 years. i am not arguing that some theories are better than others. i am putting a blanket over all theories, saying that they will always be infinitely complex and ever expanding, but essentially, completely pointless and irrelevant. unless you attach importance to 'what happens' in this 'existence', which is the game of duality. i am speaking of nonduality.

i think what i am speaking of, very few will agree with. it comes down to the idea of control also. in the strictest and deepest sense of nonduality, the idea of having individual volitional control over ANYTHING is proved false. observation of the mind processes reveals that its content is never 'created' or consciously chosen by an individual. the content of the mind is always just there, as it is, and the consciousness is able to be aware of it. then, ideas like 'i will plan to do this and that' come into that mind, on their own. and we are aware of this process, and believe that we planned our decisions individually with a separate consciousness. but the truth is that we were just aware of an apparent 'decision' happening in our minds, over which we actually have no control.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Oct, 2013 03:44 am
@carnaticmystery,
Quote:
see, to me, these are all ideas: that you have unification of concepts in your mind, expanding awareness, strengthening intuition, and ability to mindfully navigate between perspectives.


Indeed. They are all ideas, and they are powerful.

But when it comes to unification of concepts, that is something we do all the time.

How to understand any situation isn't a given, and there is a lot of things going on.
We unify and break apart concepts continuously, every day.
In the morning, when you put on clothes, you take one piece at a time, but you have an idea of the whole outfit.

When you are driving, you relate to the car as one object, but when repairing it, it's a rather complex thing of many components and systems.

The trick of it is finding the perspective that serves you best. It is by no means easy. Sometimes it is just a matter of using the right words to describe something to yourself, other times it takes concentration and focus to identify something that is giving you grief, and then consciously reworking how you understand that thing.

Quote:
i agree that words like god and enlightenment can come close to describing it, but due to their strong POSITIVE connotations, i feel these words are actually misleading, due to the extreme neutrality of this nothingness i am trying to describe.


God is a meaningless word. No one agrees what it means.
As for enlightenment, that concept is a far less mystical than we tend to think.
Just think of a light. Enlightenment is when that light is on, giving you clarity of perception.
It is a very simple idea.
The problem is, of course, that we form so many attachments and have so many important things in our lives that still cast shadows when the light comes on, so to speak.
0 Replies
 
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Oct, 2013 10:30 am
@carnaticmystery,
Quote:
this is just word play. if you want to assert that One thing exists, ok you can. but it just seems pointless, if its really true that there is NOTHING ELSE outside this one.
Yes it's largely word play on both our parts. I merely maintain that if there's nothing else, which I do, then we are still said to exist. As far as "The One" is concerned, we pantheists see it, Her, the Whole Shebang, is It

…avoiding all the contradiction and paradox of a duality with Her on one side and us on the other

Quote:
see what do you mean by existing, and not existing. those very concepts necessarily imply some primary existence or form of existence. and within this, things can exist or not exist
Forgive me Car, not sure what you mean here, partly on the grammatical basis, maybe a typo, starting in the middle of a sentence

Quote:
but if we are saying that everything that could POSSIBLY exist is all one unitary thing, then what is the question of things not existing?
The "oneness" of it all is largely an abstract concept, while the murky phrase "things not existing" leaves me at least in the dark as a kind of contradiction. Clearly, as I had suggested, we're in a kind of semantic impassse

Quote:
a blanket over all theories, saying that they will always be infinitely complex and ever expanding, but essentially, completely pointless and irrelevant.
I don't know about "infinitely"; while "ever expanding" seems a rash presumption. A given theory gains by new input but its volume diminishes by those abandoned or simplified. So many should remain about the same size while some even shrink or even disappear

Quote:
…and as to "pointless and irrelevant unless you attach importance to 'what happens' in this 'existence', which is the game of duality
I'd agree the idea of "importance" being utterly divorced from the rest of "reality" is a sort of dualism, just as God on one hand and the Universe on the other

Quote:
of science, i am simply saying it is operating within a limited framework. human consciousness, and the various presumptions that go with that, such as the assumed primary existence of a physical universe etc.
So deeply abstract and open to interpretation, your Average Clod (me) can't deal with it

But again, I get the feeling, purely intuitive to be sure, that all this is semantics at work. But it would help a lot, Car, if you could reduce your ideas to phraseology using everyday language in the usual grammatical order.

It seems like there's a Universe and we suppose there's nothing else because there's so little evidence for the notion. Of course it looks like there's a whole lot going on, causing electrons, etc, to circulate around our brains in various patterns

Certain ways of looking at all this entails what the philos call "duality," but which is so vague to most of us, that we can't draw any sure conclusions about it

Quote:
i think what i am speaking of, very few will agree with. it comes down to the idea of control also. in the strictest and deepest sense of nonduality, the idea of having individual volitional control over ANYTHING is proved false.
This sounds like "determinism," a very compelling argument in light of the observation that the more closely we control the conditions of an experiment, the more likely the same result. However the idea of ANYTHING to have been thus proven seems very dubious

My own view, for what it's wort, not very much hereabout, and I hope this doesn't make me a dualist, is that there's something we don't yet comprehend, that accounts for It All, partly from a present lack of adequate vocabulary. As we come closer and close to understanding It (maybe never entirely), some of us will call It (Her) God while others will staunchly maintain that It doesn't even exist
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Oct, 2013 10:57 am
@dalehileman,
Not intending, Car, to be contrary, and readily concede your grasp of the abstract far surpasses mine. Interesting at this point however, to ruminate the reality of the abstract, itself an abstraction. Thus we can see how the more recondite our transcendentalism the lessly effected is our communication

However it'a pleasure chatting with you and thank you for your patience

But Car how do you like that word
0 Replies
 
 

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