morality, drugs, existence

I'm not afraid of body death, I am just saying it exists and it matters on a human level.

I can say that precisely because I am not afraid of being a mortal, a man. I am not the universe, I am just a man. Just an animal of the Homo sapiens species who will die someday. I know that and I am fine with that. That's enough for me. And all the meditation power summoned by the entire universe is never going to change that anyway.

You? You're just tripping. Too many drugs?

That mental space is limited by the real world, in the sense that I can't just will the world to be as I want it to be, like I can in my imagination.

It is also limited, bounded, by the existence of other mental spaces which can easily inferred from discussing with my wife or some other person. I can't read their mind, they can't read mine. But I can 'read my mind'. There are other mental spaces out there who are not mixed up with mine. They are empirically existing 'elsewhere', distinct and separated from me.

Finally, nothing seems to be infinite in it. It has a limited intelligence, memory, and skills. The climbing of the levels of consciousness you describe elsewhere is as good a mystical ladder as anyone, but such ladders are notoriously steep, slippery, illusionary perhaps. It's easier in any case to climb it one step at a time (which is all I am saying with my step theory) than all at once. The way you describe it looks more like a struggle to push back innate limits than the easy exploration of an infinite universe of mystical possibilities.

So the mind is quite finite, bounded on all sides by other minds, reality, and its own weaknesses.

I feel rather stupid saying this but a man got to say what a man got to say...

however, something in us is AWARE of the thinking process, as opposed to the actual thoughts themselves. the part of us that is aware of thoughts as they happen, is obviously a higher level of consciousness.

I disagree. It depends on the function of that consciousness.

Awareness of thinking process is in itself thinking process. It's just a different process.

Doing a mental task is not the same thinking process as being aware of doing a mental task.

Also, I feel pretty confident about saying that a person who focuses on doing the mental task will generally do better than a person who focuses on himself doing the mental task.

Awareness of thinking process, or self awareness if you like, seems to mostly only get in the way.

Maybe it's not a higher level. Maybe it is just thinking process about an especially glorified subject.

Don’t you wish that were actually true!

You are a newbie here, so it may come as a surprise to learn that 500 responses is not anything special. And the support from the regular non-dualists here has been tepid, at best. You do the non-dualist’s cause more harm than good.

I do not hate you…and I have no problem responding to threads where I see nothing especially attractive. Your posts are gruesome…but that would not stop me from responding.

I do not think you are stupid. I think you are a careless thinker…and a piss poor advocate for your position. I think you shoot from the hip…and miss the mark more often than you hit it. I think you are peddling a half-baked cake here.

In any case, I’m not the “give up” kind, CM…and I will stick with you for as long as you keep posting.

When one is acting, yes. Like when driving a car or playing a musical instrument or doing some sport. One has to invest a lot in the task. No 'second thought', unless a major problem occurs requiring a reassessment of the situation. Hence it's impossible to watch oneself acting, while acting. If you focus on witnessing, you take the passenger seat of your mind, not the driver seat.

yes. and you identifying with the human level is only temporary...the intellect will go further by itself.

all your definitions of 'what you are' are mind-made concepts, you don't actually know. if you want to believe all that then ok.

if you think that, then feel free to stop responding.

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I do not think you are stupid. I think you are a careless thinker…and a piss poor advocate for your position. I think you shoot from the hip…and miss the mark more often than you hit it. I think you are peddling a half-baked cake here.

In any case, I’m not the “give up” kind, CM…and I will stick with you for as long as you keep posting.

look at you running in circles. first 2 sentences contradict each other. any careless thinker is stupid, they are synonyms. a piss poor advocate is also stupid. a hip shooter is stupid. a mark misser is stupid. a half baked cake peddler is stupid.

and finally...i am not stupid or any of those things.

anyway, olivier is a much more worthwhile adversary, giving REAL arguments to my statements instead of your idiotic personal stuff. sooo..maybe take a break frankie, grown-ups are discussing reality here.

no human's intelligence, memory, or skill is limited in any way, and i challenge you to prove any such limitation. all these faculties are steadily improving with time and evolution, and there is significant evidence that they will continue to do so indefinitely.

Lamest argument ever. Where ELSE could definitions be made than in the mind??? It is exactly the same with your concepts and definitions.

A person can easily be a “careless thinker”…and be intelligent. The claim that “careless thinker” and “stupid” are synonymous is the kind of thinking that comes out of a careless thinker…but not necessarily a stupid one.

And as for “a piss poor advocate” and “hip shooter” and “a mark miser” and “a half-baked cake peddler”…well, it is more careless thinking on your part to consider them to be synonyms for stupid also.

You really ought to get a grip on that careless thinking, CM, because even if you come up with something reasonable to peddle, you are never going to get any buyers if you make the kinds of silly mistakes intelligent, but careless thinking, thinkers make.

In any case, I have actually “discussed” REALITY (probably starting before you were born)…and you are not discussing REALITY, CM. You are discussing your idiosyncratic guesses about REALITY and trying to peddle those guesses as reasonable, friendly, intellectual, grown-up ( Rolling Eyes ) banter.

I love ya, Buddy. Reading and responding to your posts are a major contributor to the fun I have each day.

In haste, I can will my imagination.

And all the evidence we have points to individual, separate, non-overlapping mental spaces. I can't read other people's mind. You 'can't rule out' a universal mental space in the same way you can't rule out that the universe is a giant toad sitting on a giant turtle... You have zero evidence, you're just tripping.

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no human's intelligence, memory, or skill is limited in any way, and i challenge you to prove any such limitation. all these faculties are steadily improving with time and evolution, and there is significant evidence that they will continue to do so indefinitely.

Thanks for the laugh... Here is the proof: a mind without limitation could not improve all the time through evolution etc... Even a child could counter your proof-less claims of 'mind infinity'.

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struggling to push back limits is the natural process of the intellect.

Ergo, the mind has limits, or it wouldn't try to push them back.

I mean, for a guy in love with the awareness of his own awareness, you seem blissfully ignorant if the weakness and contradictions of some of your arguments. Maybe you should think this whole idea more carefully. It's full of holes and contradictions.

Another general point: don't trust your mental processes so much. It's perfectly possible for an individual to fool himself. The unconscious is there for a reason. You may think you've arrived at some worthwhile, mind-expanding philosophy, and yet you might only be tripping...

In haste, I can will my imagination.

And all the evidence we have points to individual, separate, non-overlapping mental spaces. I can't read other people's mind.

You 'can't rule out' a universal mental space in the same way you can't rule out that the universe is a giant toad sitting on a giant turtle... You have zero evidence, you're just tripping.

Why do you keep talking if you don't believe in the validity of your own concepts?

Just shut up the chatter box.

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A person can easily be a “careless thinker”…and be intelligent. The claim that “careless thinker” and “stupid” are synonymous is the kind of thinking that comes out of a careless thinker…but not necessarily a stupid one.

And as for “a piss poor advocate” and “hip shooter” and “a mark miser” and “a half-baked cake peddler”…well, it is more careless thinking on your part to consider them to be synonyms for stupid also.

You really ought to get a grip on that careless thinking, CM, because even if you come up with something reasonable to peddle, you are never going to get any buyers if you make the kinds of silly mistakes intelligent, but careless thinking, thinkers make.

so many words to prove that all those words don't = stupid. complete waste of time, they all do = stupid. carelessness and stupidity are synonymous. if you are careful, you are not stupid.

it is so funny that you bother to keep arguing these definition based arguments. from assertions to reality to stupidity to carelessness. you simply do not understand that language is subjective.

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In any case, I have actually “discussed” REALITY (probably starting before you were born)…and you are not discussing REALITY, CM. You are discussing your idiosyncratic guesses about REALITY and trying to peddle those guesses as reasonable, friendly, intellectual, grown-up ( Rolling Eyes ) banter.

yes you are discussing your funny little views on your funny little reality. and thank you for all the compliments about my banter. you say i am 'peddling' it as such, but i never came up with any of those words, you did. so you actually see it as such.

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I love ya, Buddy. Reading and responding to your posts are a major contributor to the fun I have each day.

it is sad that you believe that telling me this will somehow make me angry. like i am sitting here going 'omg damn, i'm so mad that frank is actually enjoying this!! grrrr! i want him to be mad and angry like me!! grr!'
seriously buddy ...really sad. i am happy to cause so much happiness in you, as per your testimonial. i am also happy that i cause endless frustration in you, as you try in vain to avoid your own intellectual acceptance of my position on non duality and reality.

Ergo, the mind has limits, or it wouldn't try to push them back.

I mean, for a guy in love with the awareness of his own awareness, you seem blissfully ignorant if the weakness and contradictions of some of your arguments. Maybe you should think this whole idea more carefully. It's full of holes and contradictions.

Another general point: don't trust your mental processes so much. It's perfectly possible for an individual to fool himself. The unconscious is there for a reason. You may think you've arrived at some worthwhile, mind-expanding philosophy, and yet you might only be tripping...

Oh, CM...this is such fun.

No...all those things are not equal to "stupid." Very intelligent individuals have at times engaged in those things. Not as often as you...I will grant you that.

The bottom line is that I do not think you are stupid. And on that bottom line I see the words, "This guy is a very careless thinker, who often shoots from the hip...and who is as likely to miss the mark as hit it!"

carnaticmystery wrote:

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Oh, CM...this is such fun.

fun and sad.

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No...all those things are not equal to "stupid." Very intelligent individuals have at times engaged in those things. Not as often as you...I will grant you that.

no. you are wrong. all those things are stupid.

i actually want to see how long you keep trying to prove definitions of words. like you think i don't get your deep point that 'you don't think i am stupid, you respect me more than that, you think there are certain special flaws which you have intelligently found out about me'.

i don't care, is my point. i say anything even remotely stupid is stupid. any carelessness, any error, any flaw in logic is pure stupidity. keep trying to prove me wrong, please.

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The bottom line is that I do not think you are stupid. And on that bottom line I see the words, "This guy is a very careless thinker, who often shoots from the hip...and who is as likely to miss the mark as hit it!"

ok. hold on a sec while i carelessly think about what to shoot from my hip next and how far to miss by.

frank, here you go. i retract everything i have said in this entire thread, and submit all my ideas of reality to your wisdom. everything i have said is essentially blind guesses as you say, and you have helped me to understand my erroneous ways. there is nothing more to be said between us, i can see how magnanimously wrong i have been this whole time. thank you frank, for saving me from delusion. i wish i could delete this thread but i can't. now the world will forever know that frank apisa outsmarted carnaticmystery in his own thread. oh well. that is certainly the case, there is no question. all the best to you sir, and thanks for enlightening me.