8
   

morality, drugs, existence

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Dec, 2013 09:01 pm
@carnaticmystery,
carnaticmystery wrote:

Quote:
You are one of the worst things to happen to the non-duality argument in A2K, CM. You slaughter it.


if i slaughter any argument, then i am not the worst thing but the best thing. i have already explained earlier that the intellect naturally destroys (slaughters) anything in its path, when it is completely unleashed.

right now your intellect is neatly leashed to the dumbass post, labelled 'i assume a reality and therefore limit my own intellect to idiocy!!!!'


You are playing a game...and you are not playing it very well.
carnaticmystery
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Dec, 2013 09:28 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
You are playing a game...and you are not playing it very well.

really? coz the game i was playing was to throw out some really crazy stuff about non duality to see just how much people can accept about it. the intention of my game was to create as much difference of opinion as possible, and get everybody questioning everything.

this thread has over 500 responses now, so yep, i think i am playing my game well, and winning.

no matter how much you hate me, think i am deluded, think i am like a jehovah's witness, think i am spreading philosophy, no matter how much you revolt against me, answer me this: do you really think you would have responded so many times if there wasn't something in what i am saying that attracts you?

you can argue all day that 'no, i only respond to prove how stupid you are', blah blah, but that is bs. if you really thought i was 100% stupid and everything i say is meaningless, you WOULD HAVE GIVEN UP responding by now. accept it frankie. hopefully you will at least consider whether you really do want to keep responding or not.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Dec, 2013 09:35 pm
@carnaticmystery,
Quote:
it is not naive to ask for proof of anything, it is the natural process of intelligence. if somebody tells you they built a flying car, you will not believe it until you see proof. same way, if i tell you you don't exist, you won't believe it until you feel proof. you can first sit around and say 'no i don't need any proof,' until you realise that you do need it.

I HAVE proof of my existence. think therefore I am. There's no way around it. You might question the 'I' but just say it's the name we all give to our individual mental space. In other words, it is a proven fact, as far as 'I' am concerned, that there exists at least one mental space (mine, but others are welcome Smile), within which events such as thinking, imagining, or remembering actually happen. And you know what? I have also good reason to believe I am not alone...
Cool

[/quote]i am not saying proof is possible. i am saying the eventual seeking of proof is unavoidable. when you seek it enough, you find it paradoxically by finding nothing.[/quote]
Nope. Absence of proof is not proof of absence. The dog will never catch his tail, not because his tail is a ghost or an illusion, but because he is physically unable to do so. Like him, you'll never 'catch your consciousness' because you are mentally unable to 'think' more than two levels of thought at any given time (levels 0 and 1 in my taxonomy), aka one level of consciousness in your terminology.

Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Dec, 2013 09:37 pm
@carnaticmystery,
Quote:
the question 'does absolute reality exist' is one of the foremost questions discussed among prominent philosophers, spiritualists, scientists and many others. to think that this specific question is vacuous and facile is idiotic.

Do these guys exist or not? Cause if they don't, I wouldn't care too much about what they say...
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Dec, 2013 09:45 pm
@carnaticmystery,
Quote:
as i said, you live in fear of mental illness, death etc. so enjoy your limited life.

And as I said, enjoy being a dead man walking
carnaticmystery
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Dec, 2013 09:51 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
I HAVE proof of my existence. think therefore I am. There's no way around it. You might question the 'I' but just say it's the name we all give to our individual mental space.

yes, i am questioning the 'i'. i agree its just a name for mental space, but the word INDIVIDUAL mental space is an assumption on your part. you cannot be sure that your consciousness is entirely your own, because it is infinite. it leaves you beyond your own control in sleep. things go in in your subconscious constantly which you have no idea about. your consciousness, as you experience it, is always vastly more active than what your individual attention knows about.

Quote:
In other words, it is a proven fact, as far as 'I' am concerned, that there exists at least one mental space (mine, but others are welcome Smile), within which events such as thinking, imagining, or remembering actually happen. And you know what? I have also good reason to believe I am not alone...

i agree that one mental space is 'proven' by experience. events such as thinking appear to happen, defining it as ACTUALLY is your own choice, and never verifiable.

you have good reason to believe you are not alone, if you assume duality, and separate things existing. this naturally drops away when you investigate further. even physics proves that the entire universe is interconnected particles and energy. nothing is separate in the universe physically. why would mental space be any different? the entire mental space is one interconnected universe also, the same universe as the physical one. this is pure conjecture on my part, but i experience it as such.
Quote:
Nope. Absence of proof is not proof of absence. The dog will never catch his tail, not because his tail is a ghost or an illusion, but because he is physically unable to do so. Like him, you'll never 'catch your consciousness' because you are mentally unable to 'think' more than two levels of thought at any given time (levels 0 and 1 in my taxonomy), aka one level of consciousness in your terminology.

i agree that absence of proof is not proof of absence. BUT COMPLETE ABSENCE is proof of absence.
i am not saying i can 'catch my consciousness', i am saying that in chasing the source of consciousness, the observer becomes more and more subtle, as you go past the 'levels' you talk about.
so for you, level 0, i think. then level 1 i hear what i think. then level 2 i sense the hearing of what i think.

you think it stops there, anything more is impossible. but the levels go on infinitely. what changes is the observer's subtlety. see, when you are only sensing the hearing of what you think, what you are in that moment is such a subtle nothingness almost. then, if you try and go further, you have to become even more subtle to notice what it is that is noticing.

the process of noticing more and more subtlety in your own consciousness is seen as a neverending process. within the experience of attempting, you get closer and closer to 'becoming nothing'. at a certain point the 'nothingness' becomes totally apparent as the only primary existence, and this is what i mean about COMPLETE ABSENCE.

an individual thinker can never understand complete absence, because it is only apparent when the thinker is still.
carnaticmystery
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Dec, 2013 09:53 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Do these guys exist or not? Cause if they don't, I wouldn't care too much about what they say...

see, i only brought up those guys because you were ridiculing the question about 'absolute reality'. you seem to believe in existence and things, so i am using your logic to convince you that the question is valid.

of course i still maintain nothing exists absolutely. everything in the universe appears to exist, in consciousness. at that level, it is all totally real, and existent. i am just saying that level is not the ultimate.
carnaticmystery
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Dec, 2013 09:55 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
And as I said, enjoy being a dead man walking

it is enjoyable, and it is the natural result of dualism dissolving into nondualism. you are a dead man walking on the level of duality, and you are eternal life from the level of nonduality. you are the universe. you think the universe will die once your body dies? if you identify only with the universe as your 'self', then you won't be afraid of body death.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Dec, 2013 10:06 pm
@carnaticmystery,
I'm not afraid of body death, I am just saying it exists and it matters on a human level. I can say that precisely because I am not afraid of being a mortal, a man. I am not the universe, I am just a man. Just an animal of the Homo sapiens species who will die someday. I know that and I am fine with that. That's enough for me. And all the meditation power summoned by the entire universe is never going to change that anyway.

You? You're just tripping. Too many drugs?
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Dec, 2013 10:10 pm
@carnaticmystery,
Quote:
see, i only brought up those guys because you were ridiculing the question about 'absolute reality'. you seem to believe in existence and things, so i am using your logic to convince you that the question is valid.

My logic says: if a guys comes to you telling you he doesn't really exist, DON'T BELIEVE HIM, because if he didn't exist, HE WOULDN'T BE THERE TALKING!!!! Rolling Eyes

How is that so hard to understand?
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Dec, 2013 10:51 pm
@carnaticmystery,
Quote:
yes, i am questioning the 'i'. i agree its just a name for mental space, but the word INDIVIDUAL mental space is an assumption on your part.

That mental space is limited by the real world, in the sense that I can't just will the world to be as I want it to be, like I can in my imagination. It is also limited, bounded, by the existence of other mental spaces which can easily inferred from discussing with my wife or some other person. I can't read their mind, they can't read mine. But I can 'read my mind'. There are other mental spaces out there who are not mixed up with mine. They are empirically existing 'elsewhere', distinct and separated from me. Finally, nothing seems to be infinite in it. It has a limited intelligence, memory, and skills. The climbing of the levels of consciousness you describe elsewhere is as good a mystical ladder as anyone, but such ladders are notoriously steep, slippery, illusionary perhaps. It's easier in any case to climb it one step at a time (which is all I am saying with my step theory) than all at once. The way you describe it looks more like a struggle to push back innate limits than the easy exploration of an infinite universe of mystical possibilities.

So the mind is quite finite, bounded on all sides by other minds, reality, and its own weaknesses.

I feel rather stupid saying this but a man got to say what a man got to say...
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Dec, 2013 05:28 am
@Olivier5,
I don't think carnie can do the ironic orgasm Olivier.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Dec, 2013 06:22 am
@spendius,
Ironic orgasm???
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Dec, 2013 06:26 am
@Olivier5,
Flaubert.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Dec, 2013 06:40 am
@carnaticmystery,
carnaticmystery wrote:

Quote:
You are playing a game...and you are not playing it very well.

really? coz the game i was playing was to throw out some really crazy stuff about non duality to see just how much people can accept about it. the intention of my game was to create as much difference of opinion as possible, and get everybody questioning everything.


Don’t you wish that were actually true!

Quote:

this thread has over 500 responses now, so yep, i think i am playing my game well, and winning.


You are a newbie here, so it may come as a surprise to learn that 500 responses is not anything special. And the support from the regular non-dualists here has been tepid, at best. You do the non-dualist’s cause more harm than good.

Quote:
no matter how much you hate me, think i am deluded, think i am like a jehovah's witness, think i am spreading philosophy, no matter how much you revolt against me, answer me this: do you really think you would have responded so many times if there wasn't something in what i am saying that attracts you?


I do not hate you…and I have no problem responding to threads where I see nothing especially attractive. Your posts are gruesome…but that would not stop me from responding.

Quote:
you can argue all day that 'no, i only respond to prove how stupid you are', blah blah, but that is bs. if you really thought i was 100% stupid and everything i say is meaningless, you WOULD HAVE GIVEN UP responding by now. accept it frankie. hopefully you will at least consider whether you really do want to keep responding or not.


I do not think you are stupid. I think you are a careless thinker…and a piss poor advocate for your position. I think you shoot from the hip…and miss the mark more often than you hit it. I think you are peddling a half-baked cake here.

In any case, I’m not the “give up” kind, CM…and I will stick with you for as long as you keep posting.

Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Dec, 2013 07:47 am
@spendius,
Reference?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Dec, 2013 10:08 am
@Olivier5,
I dunno. I've forgotten. Letters maybe. Or a biog. Stendhal had a touch of it. There are others. It's a species of one-up-mamship, so to speak, in relation to bourgeois sensibilities.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Dec, 2013 11:54 am
@spendius,
I just don't get it, sorry.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Dec, 2013 06:44 pm
@Olivier5,
While I am reluctant to isolate any one layer of consciousness and then say that this level something else than "thinking process", I like the analogy of the mirrors.

If I were to adapt it to my own approach I would add that we experience nothing but those mirrors that are facing each other.

CM wrote:
Quote:
however, something in us is AWARE of the thinking process, as opposed to the actual thoughts themselves. the part of us that is aware of thoughts as they happen, is obviously a higher level of consciousness.


I disagree. It depends on the function of that consciousness.

Awareness of thinking process is in itself thinking process. It's just a different process.
Doing a mental task is not the same thinking process as being aware of doing a mental task.
Also, I feel pretty confident about saying that a person who focuses on doing the mental task will generally do better than a person who focuses on himself doing the mental task.
Awareness of thinking process, or self awareness if you like, seems to mostly only get in the way.
Maybe it's not a higher level. Maybe it is just thinking process about an especially glorified subject.

Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Dec, 2013 08:18 pm
@Cyracuz,
Quote:
If I were to adapt it to my own approach I would add that we experience nothing but those mirrors that are facing each other.

To me those mirrors are elements of the mind but they reflect the surrounding world, and they also reflect each other.

Quote:
Also, I feel pretty confident about saying that a person who focuses on doing the mental task will generally do better than a person who focuses on himself doing the mental task.
Awareness of thinking process, or self awareness if you like, seems to mostly only get in the way.

When one is acting, yes. Like when driving a car or playing a musical instrument or doing some sport. One has to invest a lot in the task. No 'second thought', unless a major problem occurs requiring a reassessment of the situation. Hence it's impossible to watch oneself acting, while acting. If you focus on witnessing, you take the passenger seat of your mind, not the driver seat.
 

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