morality, drugs, existence

@Olivier5,

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Not a higher but a different level. It's just one part of the brain monitoring another, hearing it think. I would venture to say the left brain monitors the right one and vice versa, in a mirror effect which may indeed create the illusion of an infinity of levels like when one puts two mirrors facing one another (think Citizen Kane).

this is pure conjecture. as stated, there is no scientific or medical proof of consciousness itself, so to speculate about the levels of it is pointless. when i said a 'higher' level is aware, i just meant that simply, if something is aware of something else, then the thing that is aware is of higher order.

left and right brain phenomena is well researched and you should know that left brain controls logic and reason, right brain controls creativity and emotion. your theory that left and right brain hear each other is preposterous. hearing happens when sound goes into the ear, and into the brain. thinking in words happens when the same sounds are imagined in the auditory system in the brain.

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That would explain why the dog can't catch his tail, why we can't be fully conscious of our own conscience. Because we only have two brains, one that thinks, the other that monitors the thinking of the first.

i find it difficult to take you seriously when you don't understand the difference between conscience and consciousness. your conscience is your morals. we can easily be conscious of that. consciousness itself encompasses all experience, so there is no way to entirely be conscious of ALL consciousness, because there is always one part that is observing.

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Whatever it is that materially creates conscience, it can only manage well one level. At best one can scrap a few mental resources to vaguely echo the hearing self, ie of the first degree monitor.

NOTHING materially creates CONSCIOUSNESS, at least according to all science to date.

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Level 0: I think
Level 1: I hear me think
Level 2: I vaguely am aware that I hear myself thinking
Level 3: impossible, no echo at that level is humanely possible without forgetting entirely about level 0.

if you want to make up levels, then yes. so what? forgetting entirely about level 0 happens by itself because of the INCLINATION of consciousness to figure itself out. sticking with your basic level 0 of 'i think' is not the limit of human potential. you will find out when you question it properly.

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I also think only the first level of conscience is of material use. It's useful to monitor oneself, and thus 2 brains are better than 1. But 3 can be a crowd. Too many cooks.

all the levels are one consciousness, you are just confusing yourself. just because i spoke of higher levels, i only did so to prove the infinite nature of consciousness. if you want to prove that it is restricted to 3 levels, and then beyond this you FORGET ABOUT LEVEL ZERO, oh no, calamity!!

have fun living out your life limited to: 'i think, and sometimes i hear myself think. i have no proof of what it is that thinks, what i am. if i investigate, it gets too close to losing level zero, 'i think', therefore i am too scared to lose that. so i will stop investigating.'

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Carnatic said: literally millions of people have used various drugs to 'expand the mind' and 'understand reality'. it is only your opinion that this is not possible. i am not saying it is possible either, because i don't believe in any reality

Shambling bumbling junkies and drunks don't look to me like their minds are expanded.. Wink

PS- I've never drugged or drank, but a woman once tried to get me drunk on wine at an office party and i went along with it to be a good sport. At first it felt okay, as if my mind had shrunk and I was wrapped up in a warm cosy little "village idiot" world of my own, but I soon got fed up with that feeling of mental claustrophobia and was glad when I eventually sobered up and got my brain back.. Smile

Incidentally I was into the Alternative Communities scene some years ago and visited the Rainbow Tribe in their tipi village in a remote valley in Wales but was very disappointed. It was a beautiful summers day in a beautiful green valley, but it was wasted on them because they were all in their dark wigwams high as kites.

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@Olivier5,

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Just because you deny your own existence does not mean you're right. Maybe you exist in spite of yourself...

i only deny my existence in an ABSOLUTE sense. my appearing existence is exactly equally as REAL as yours appears to be. there is no difference, other than the belief in an absolute reality behind it all.

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You could also deny the existence of your body as a relevant unit of analysis -- we're all a big flux at the atomic level, you know the drill -- but I assure you that your body can become sick, and die and rot. And it'll be still part of the Big Flux, but in a different way.

i do deny the absolute existence of my body, of course! i don't deny my consciousness of it, and the entirety of sensory experiences, emotions, thoughts that go with it. i just know that that is all it is. an appearance in consciousness.

of course it may become sick and die, and i won't care. i am already dead, there is no difference between life and death. i am not the body just like i am not the mind or the consciousness. i don't exist.

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Your mind can also get sick, ESPECIALLY if it denies itself. It's a double bind and it leads to schizophrenia.

if you believe your mind is sick, it will be to you. that is the entirety of mental illness defined.
schizophrenia is a list of diagnostic criteria: hallucinations, paranoid delusions, disorganized speech/behaviour, functional impairment.

if you decide to see a doctor and complain of those things, you will be diagnosed as schizophrenic and medicated with CNS depressants (all psychiatric medications). they simply reduce brain activity overall, and therefore sensory input is drastically reduced, so the entire thought process is dulled.

if you believe in this system, you really believe that schizophrenics are ill and require living as dulled out vegetables, then go ahead.

i would submit that the entirety of mental illness including schizophrenia, depression, anxiety, psychosis, drug dependence...can be cured by the philosophy of non duality, and have been in many cases. once identity with these mind-made afflictions is gone, they no longer matter, and the person will not require medications anymore.

'hearing voices' is not a problem if you don't care who they are or what they say. 'paranoid delusions' don't exist if you don't care about them or believe them.

the current way of dealing with mental illness, suppressing the brain with drugs, is accepted by almost all in the medical profession as a temporary way of postponing the problem. with diagnosis of mental illness on the rise steadily in all developed countries, all psychiatrists know that a better way of dealing with it is NEEDED if we want to live without drugs suppressing our brains. however, many are in favour of the drugs just because of the revenue it brings in. mental health medications are a billion dollar industry, and USA dominate it.

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@Romeo Fabulini,

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PS- I've never drugged or drank, but a woman once tried to get me drunk on wine at an office party and i went along with it to be a good sport.

ok, so all your opinions on drugs are completely pointless, seeing as you have only experienced alcohol once in your life and nothing else.

it is obvious that various drugs have different effects on the body and mind. many such as cannabis, LSD, psilocybin, DMT etc have been studied in detail and shown to have mind-expanding properties. that is, the experience of those under the influence is unanimously a feeling of 'expanded mind and awareness'.

if you want to live life afraid of certain experiences, then live a limited life.

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Carnatic said: @RF- your opinions on drugs are completely pointless, seeing as you have only experienced alcohol once in your life and nothing else.
...if you want to live life afraid of certain experiences, then live a limited life

Ah, but drugs might only give the ILLUSION that the user has expanded his mind! Anyway when the drug wears off, why doesn't the users mind STAY "expanded"?
If people really want to free their minds, Christianity is a pretty powerful "drug".. Wink

Ex-bounty hunter Paul became a Christian and liked the feeling of power and strength it gave him- "I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want" (Philippians 4:12)
It's a POWER thing.. Smile

"After Jesus spent the night in prayer,everybody tried to touch him because power was coming from him" (Luke 6:12-19)
And we too can "touch" him, just mumbling a few words to him now and again when we're feeling fed up, knackered or lonely will log us onto him and get us a "power download"-
Jesus said - "Someone touched me, I know that power has gone out from me." (Luke 8:46)

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/dynamo_zpsad8a3b4b.jpg~original

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@Romeo Fabulini,

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Ah, but drugs might only give the ILLUSION that the user has expanded his mind! Anyway when the drug wears off, why doesn't the users mind STAY "expanded"?
If people really want to free their minds, Christianity is a pretty powerful "drug"..

of course drugs only give the illusion of mind expansion, because mind expansion is an illusion.
you are correct that christianity, like all religions and philosophies (including non duality), are simply 'drugs' to satisfy the human desire for some 'truth'.

i personally think non duality is the best method to understand it all, and continue to live. however, ultimately, any method, including religion or drugs or anything else, can take you to the same final realisation that is non-duality. it is an evolutionary trend, in 50 odd years i suspect that non-duality will be the only 'reality' that humans refer to.

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What the hell's "non-duality"? I googled around but still don't know

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@Romeo Fabulini,

non duality is a simple, ancient concept; a rejection of duality.

duality encompasses all human experience and concepts. why are all human experiences and concepts dual? because they imply a separation between an individual human, and an experiential external universe. non-duality goes beyond that and unites everything as a single united 'existence'.

if you 'are' the same computer screen you are looking at, then there is no more duality in your 'experience' of 'looking at a computer screen'.

the appearing 'you' looks at the appearing 'computer screen'. the distinction is created in the mind, and believed to be true. if you don't believe it, you can intuitively sense that you are one with everything, it is just one process happening, or APPEARING to happen in consciousness.

once you have the perspective of only one thing happening continuously and eternally, this is non duality, there is no more duality. life and death are irrelevant in non duality, because both are just different sides of the one existence. life is consciousness, death is unconsciousness. we don't fear deep sleep, but it is exactly the same as death. we don't fear dreams, but they are exactly the same as concepts of heaven/hell.

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@carnaticmystery,

carnaticmystery wrote:

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You pretend not to be doing it also...but your posts belie that pretense.

no they don't, they all affirm it. i can't help if you can't accept that someone who 'asserts' things need not believe in anything. hahahaha. idiot.

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If we were to remove all the assertions you make from your posts...we'd be left with just about nothing.

i already removed all assertions, saying i don't believe anything. you continue to interpret all my words as assertions, so it is your problem. you SHOULD BE LEFT WITH NOTHING after hearing my words, that is what they point to.

Yeah, sure!

Up above I was mockingly pointing out the absurdity of your position, and wrote:

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There is no me.

There is no you.

There is no "out there."

There is no thread.

There is no intellect.

There is no argument.

Yet you are the winner!

You replied:

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all true. thanks.

But now you want us to accept that you are not really asserting any of that silliness.

C'mon.

You can tell the truth, CM. You won't turn into stone if you do.

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i do deny the absolute existence of my body, of course! i don't deny my consciousness of it, and the entirety of sensory experiences, emotions, thoughts that go with it. i just know that that is all it is. an appearance in consciousness.

of course it may become sick and die, and i won't care. i am already dead, there is no difference between life and death. i am not the body just like i am not the mind or the consciousness. i don't exist.

This is CM expressing "just an opinion"...he has doubts about this.

Sure he does!

He is locked into this belief system like Hannibal Lecter was locked into his cell.

But he does exist...and if he didn't, I would have to invent him in order to provide me with the entertainment he provides.

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@carnaticmystery,

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i only deny my existence in an ABSOLUTE sense.

And you could be absolutely wrong but apparently, this never crossed your absence of mind.

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i am already dead

I feel sorry for you. Honestly.

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you really believe that schizophrenics are ill

I do, though I agree with you that medication is not a solution, and that philosophy can help. But not your philosophy, which is about as suicidal as they get.

Oh well, I warned you...

And why oh why is dualism so bad that it justifies committing philisophical suicide???

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@carnaticmystery,

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there is no scientific or medical proof of consciousness itself, so to speculate about the levels of it is pointless.

The entire project called science is based on the dualism of reason and empirical evidence. It presupposes consciousness (thanks for the info on 'conscience' --I am French and those 2 words are the same in my language). And we don't need proof for it's existence: we get every day when we are conscious of our thoughts. That's proof enough for me.

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your theory that left and right brain hear each other is preposterous. hearing happens when sound goes into the ear, and into the brain. thinking in words happens when the same sounds are imagined in the auditory system in the brain.

Whatever. It's just an idea. But if consciousness is a sense, like I think it is, then it follows that it involves a mechanism to extract information from its object, for instance that one part of the brain can 'hear' what another part is thinking.

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NOTHING materially creates CONSCIOUSNESS, at least according to all science to date.

Science is very ignorant of these things, it's true, but ignorance doesn't prove an an absence of material causes to the mind. It just means we don't know yet. What do you think creates the mind? Magic? What's the damn purpose of non-dualism if you can't even resolve that the mind is materially supported rather than magically different from matter?

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all the levels are one consciousness, you are just confusing yourself. just because i spoke of higher levels, i only did so to prove the infinite nature of consciousness.

I'm not the confused one here. Your consciousness is far far from infinite. Smile

it's only turning around in circles, like the dog chasing his tail...

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all the levels are one consciousness, you are just confusing yourself. just because i spoke of higher levels, i only did so to prove the infinite nature of consciousness.

Have fun dying yours.

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@Olivier5,

I messed the last quote. Should have been:

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have fun living out your life limited to: 'i think,

Have fun dying yours.

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@Frank Apisa,

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Yeah, sure!

Up above I was mockingly pointing out the absurdity of your position

yes i knew that. so what? lol

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But now you want us to accept that you are not really asserting any of that silliness.

C'mon.

You can tell the truth, CM. You won't turn into stone if you do.

i don't want you to accept anything. please keep rejecting everything i say it is fun..

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@Frank Apisa,

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This is CM expressing "just an opinion"...he has doubts about this.

i never said i have doubts. i said my opinions are irrelevant, because i don't absolutely believe in an underlying reality. but i don't doubt the logic of what i am saying at all. i just believe logic is limited.

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Sure he does!

He is locked into this belief system like Hannibal Lecter was locked into his cell.

every human is locked into the belief system of their intellect. it is an illusion that you can change your beliefs individually. whatever knowledge you pick up came from outside, your intellect chose to believe it. therefore the entirety of 'knowledge' is an involuntary process done by your consciousness.

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But he does exist...and if he didn't, I would have to invent him in order to provide me with the entertainment he provides.

of course i exist in consciousness, where EVERYTHING EXISTS. you guys keep thinking there is some big paradox because 'how can nothing exist, i exist!'...but you exist in consciousness only. i accept that, and have no problem with the appearance of consciousness. i just don't believe in it as much as you. i don't believe in its ultimate reality like you do. what is your problem? go ahead and keep believing..

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@carnaticmystery,

carnaticmystery wrote:

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Yeah, sure!

Up above I was mockingly pointing out the absurdity of your position

yes i knew that. so what? lol

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But now you want us to accept that you are not really asserting any of that silliness.

C'mon.

You can tell the truth, CM. You won't turn into stone if you do.

i don't want you to accept anything. please keep rejecting everything i say it is fun..

Okay...I am delighted to add to your enjoyment of the day.

But do keep in mind that I am not rejecting anything you say.You may be correct on everything you are blindly guessing about. My (even though you blindly guess there is no "me") disagreement with you (even though you blindly guess there is no you) is about the way you present your assertions...as though you are revealing some great truth in a world with no truth.

Glad you are enjoying this as much as I, though. Wink

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@carnaticmystery,

carnaticmystery wrote:

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This is CM expressing "just an opinion"...he has doubts about this.

i never said i have doubts. i said my opinions are irrelevant, because i don't absolutely believe in an underlying reality. but i don't doubt the logic of what i am saying at all. i just believe logic is limited.

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Sure he does!

He is locked into this belief system like Hannibal Lecter was locked into his cell.

every human is locked into the belief system of their intellect. it is an illusion that you can change your beliefs individually. whatever knowledge you pick up came from outside, your intellect chose to believe it. therefore the entirety of 'knowledge' is an involuntary process done by your consciousness.

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But he does exist...and if he didn't, I would have to invent him in order to provide me with the entertainment he provides.

of course i exist in consciousness, where EVERYTHING EXISTS. you guys keep thinking there is some big paradox because 'how can nothing exist, i exist!'...but you exist in consciousness only. i accept that, and have no problem with the appearance of consciousness. i just don't believe in it as much as you. i don't believe in its ultimate reality like you do. what is your problem? go ahead and keep believing..

Yeah...when Christians get desperate, they often go into confused, rambling like this, CM.

I must say that for someone who is convinced there is no YOU...you certainly put a lot of emphasis on what you guess (or believe.)

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CM...

...by now even you should realize that this "notion" of yours needs a lot more baking.

Put it back in the oven for a while. Maybe it will make more sense...and you won't have to try all those dodges.

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@Frank Apisa,

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Yeah...when Christians get desperate, they often go into confused, rambling like this, CM.

But not all. Sometimes they fight sufficiently to have opponents scuttering for cover like a rabbit bolting into its hole when a greyhound is sighted and then popping out again when the coast is clear and nothing untoward is happening.

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@Olivier5,

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i only deny my existence in an ABSOLUTE sense.

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And you could be absolutely wrong but apparently, this never crossed your absence of mind.

umm yes it has numerous times. the question 'does anything exist' is the sole question i have been trying to answer for years now, these are the conclusions coming out.

with the same authority that you say 'i experience that i definitely exist', i am saying that 'i experience that i definitely may or may not exist, and that question will be infinitely unanswerable, therefore there is no absolute reality or existence, in my opinion.'

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i am already dead

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I feel sorry for you. Honestly.

well i in turn feel sorry that you feel sorry about that. that is life. life is death. millions of your cells are dying as we speak. so suddenly, when the entire body dies, what is the big deal? your consciousness as you know it may or may not disappear, we have NO WAY OF KNOWING. so what do you care about death so much? false assumptions, fears.

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you really believe that schizophrenics are ill

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I do, though I agree with you that medication is not a solution, and that philosophy can help. But not your philosophy, which is about as suicidal as they get.

Oh well, I warned you...

And why oh why is dualism so bad that it justifies committing philisophical suicide???

lol how is my philosophy suicidal. understanding that you don't absolutely 'exist' does not induce any sort of mental illness, suicidal tendencies or anything. it just gives absolute freedom. you can be yourself totally, without defining it as yourself anymore, but just being it. not to mention the dozens of schizophrenics/suicidal people/mentally ill people that i have personally cured by talking to them about this sort of philosophy. and specifically advising against drugs.

i am not trying to spread this philosophy, because what i am saying is self evident. this thread was more about delving deeper into non duality, and understanding if there IS any meaning to this apparent reality.

2 Replies

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