8
   

morality, drugs, existence

 
 
carnaticmystery
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Dec, 2013 07:31 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
There is no me.

There is no you.

There is no "out there."

There is no thread.

There is no intellect.

There is no argument.

Yet you are the winner!

all true. thanks.
0 Replies
 
carnaticmystery
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Dec, 2013 07:34 am
@spendius,
Quote:
A red hot pin stuck into your left buttock would find the you in you on an instant.

no. it would cause pain and reaction to remove the pin, nothing more. the pain and reaction appear in consciousness. the 'me' or 'you' in consciousness is added subjectively by your own choice.

it is impossible to find the you in you or the me in me. you can tell yourself you found it, but thats all.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Dec, 2013 07:56 am
@carnaticmystery,
carnaticmystery wrote:

Quote:
Yeah...you are "honest."

thanks

Quote:
There is no "you"...but you express "your" personal opinion that there isn't!

yes. you're slowly getting it, congrats. yes i appear to express my opinion, one of the many appearances in consciousness, which itself is also an appearance only. you think you are sure of its ultimate reality, so congrats on playing the belief game.


I do not do "believing", CM...and I mention that often.

You pretend not to be doing it also...but your posts belie that pretense.

If we were to remove all the assertions you make from your posts...we'd be left with just about nothing.

If you decide to get serious about this thesis of yours...put into coherent form and present it again. And this time...stop the theatrics and stop with the dogma. Present it as a possible form of REALITY...a guess about it...rather than as a messianic proclamation.

In the meantime, if you want to keep soiling this thread of yours...I am here to be of whatever assistance I can. Wink
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Dec, 2013 09:25 am
@carnaticmystery,
Quote:
it is impossible to find the you in you or the me in me. you can tell yourself you found it, but thats all.


But only a you in you could know that.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Dec, 2013 11:58 am
@carnaticmystery,
Quote:
if you say 'i think', there is no way to verify yourself as the 'i'. you just assume it to be true.
if you hear yourself thinking, then all you know is that 'thoughts are being heard'. how can you be sure of the identity of the thinker? you choose to define it as your SELF. if you don't, it just becomes 'thoughts being heard'. if there is no identity behind the thought, then its relevance and reality becomes questionable.

Yes, it's a assumption (or definition) but I am fine with that. I don't need proof for everything. That voice I hear sounds like the voice I hear when I speak. I identify with it in a strong intuitive way, just like I identify with my desires, my body, my face. These are elements of my self. I could of course destroy each and everyone of these elements if I wanted to, but I won't. Not just yet.

And you come across as quite opinionated and sure of yourself too, so I hope you don't mind if I don't believe you when you say you don't exist and your opinions are void... Smile For a non-entity, you seem a bit too eager to share your opinions with other 'non-entities'. That's where nihilists always flunk it. In the end they either wallow in self-contradiction, or they lose faith in nihilism.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Dec, 2013 12:14 pm
@spendius,
Obviously, cm has a high tolerance level for paradoxes and self-contradictory statements...
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Dec, 2013 12:27 pm
@Olivier5,
He has an even higher tolerance for halfwits and sophists. And that does not include you, unless you feel that it does. Wink
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Dec, 2013 01:03 pm
@Cyracuz,
Have you lost faith in nihilism yet, Cyracuse? I have. I used to believe all this BS about the world being absurd and all... Very French. Smile

Then I went out of my cocoon and traveled to places where nobody had much patience for such futility.

It's hard to doubt your own existence when you're really hungry, or scared, or elated. It's much easier to do in a couch, satiated, numb and bored...
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Dec, 2013 02:47 pm
@Cyracuz,
Quote:
He has an even higher tolerance for halfwits and sophists. And that does not include you, unless you feel that it does.


Would you care to name names Cyr. The old "present company excepted" gambit seized up years ago from over-strain.
carnaticmystery
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Dec, 2013 08:21 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
You pretend not to be doing it also...but your posts belie that pretense.

no they don't, they all affirm it. i can't help if you can't accept that someone who 'asserts' things need not believe in anything. hahahaha. idiot.
Quote:
If we were to remove all the assertions you make from your posts...we'd be left with just about nothing.

i already removed all assertions, saying i don't believe anything. you continue to interpret all my words as assertions, so it is your problem. you SHOULD BE LEFT WITH NOTHING after hearing my words, that is what they point to.
Quote:
If you decide to get serious about this thesis of yours...put into coherent form and present it again. And this time...stop the theatrics and stop with the dogma. Present it as a possible form of REALITY...a guess about it...rather than as a messianic proclamation.

why would i get serious, i told you my opinions are irrelevant. you give them relevance. why would i present it as REALITY, when i am saying it is beyond all ideas of reality. it is not a guess, it is an opinion based on experience.
Quote:
In the meantime, if you want to keep soiling this thread of yours...I am here to be of whatever assistance I can.

how many times a day do you fantasise about faeces? sad, disgusting man.
carnaticmystery
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Dec, 2013 08:22 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
But only a you in you could know that.

that is a TERRIBLE argument.

right now, do you know for sure the "you in you"? no, you assume it. there is no possible way to know for sure, yet you assume. ok go ahead, mr belief.
0 Replies
 
carnaticmystery
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Dec, 2013 08:31 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Yes, it's a assumption (or definition) but I am fine with that. I don't need proof for everything.

yes ok, so its the same as being a theist, just blindly believing. go ahead.

Quote:
That voice I hear sounds like the voice I hear when I speak. I identify with it in a strong intuitive way, just like I identify with my desires, my body, my face.

yes, you identify because you accept it all as your ultimate self. you don't question that belief.
Quote:
These are elements of my self. I could of course destroy each and everyone of these elements if I wanted to, but I won't. Not just yet.

yes i can see that. but the truth is, you want to by yourself eventually.

Quote:
And you come across as quite opinionated and sure of yourself too, so I hope you don't mind if I don't believe you when you say you don't exist and your opinions are void...

of course i don't give two shits. of course i come across as opinionated, this is my thread discussing what i consider to be the most complex concept possible in humanity - non duality.

i am extremely opinionated on the matter. this does NOT mean i think my opinions are relevant or 'real'. it means that the involuntary intellect in my mind has gravitated toward non-duality as what it understands best. and it is searching for more and more validation. at the same time, it knows there is no need for anything, because nothing absolutely exists.


Quote:
For a non-entity, you seem a bit too eager to share your opinions with other 'non-entities'. That's where nihilists always flunk it. In the end they either wallow in self-contradiction, or they lose faith in nihilism.

just because i consider myself a 'non-entity' ULTIMATELY, does not mean i don't appear to exist. as i appear to exist, i am happy to share any opinions i appear to have.

the word nihilism is hated because it implies negativity and nothingness. THAT is why nihilists flunk, because most people want positivity and somethingness to be the ultimate truth.

i have never claimed to be a nihilist. the 'nothingness' i describe is more a neutrality. having said that, i believe nihilism and solipsism are sound theories, and it is only verbal differences that separate it from non-duality. people like to think non-duality is a special religious technique, but it is just a simple ancient philosophy.
0 Replies
 
carnaticmystery
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Dec, 2013 08:37 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Have you lost faith in nihilism yet, Cyracuse? I have. I used to believe all this BS about the world being absurd and all... Very French. Smile

Then I went out of my cocoon and traveled to places where nobody had much patience for such futility.

It's hard to doubt your own existence when you're really hungry, or scared, or elated. It's much easier to do in a couch, satiated, numb and bored...


being against nihilism comes from an ultimate standpoint of theism or some other philosophy. non-duality has nothing to do with nihilism, and yet the ultimate message is very similar. non-duality would call the 'nothingness' as brahman or 'everythingness' instead.

it is true that if you are hungry/scared, then those feelings and emotions will be primary in your consciousness, and secondary things like questioning your existence will not arise. but were YOU the one hungry and scared, or just watching others?

i am not arguing that the tendency to philosophize about life and reality is not born out of a lavish life where basic survival is already met. i am saying that in this day and age, an increasing proportion of humans are living in this lavish way, and therefore are philosophizing endlessly. i am just pointing out what i believe to be the end point of all this philosophizing.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Dec, 2013 08:42 pm
@carnaticmystery,
Quote:
but i am questioning that 'existence' itself, because if it is looked at it without any presumptions of a primary reality or existence, it loses its own reality or existence. i am saying the present experience even, the experience of this moment, becomes a questionable illusory 'experience' because the very experiencer is dissolving into nothingness.

What you are struggling with is quite simple: a person adopting a radical non-dualist perspective is bound to dissolve his sense of self, as a distinct entity from the rest of the universe. He or she may gradually lose interest in the world, and in self.

Some philosophies can be harmful to your mental health. The way I see it, our mind functions based on a series of innate axioms which, when they work together, create a healthy (or not too unhealthy) mental space. For instance, one subset of axioms underwrites our innate 3D euclidian geometric system of space representation. Others are: a sense of self, of time, trust in our senses, and in a sense of agency, and in the existence of an objective world, a sense empathy for other humans, a very useful and complex sense of logic(s), a sense of beauty, etc. The funny thing is: we can contest and deny the validity of any of these 'innate senses' or 'common senses' in doing philosophy, but WE CANNOT REALLY THINK OUTSIDE of this innate mental axiomatic. Not in a healthy, productive way anyway. We can only become mad if we try hard enough to imagine a space in 4 dimensions.

Deny dualism at your own peril.
carnaticmystery
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Dec, 2013 08:43 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Obviously, cm has a high tolerance level for paradoxes and self-contradictory statements...

of course i do, because that is the entirety of existence. every statement can be contradicted, and argued endlessly. the paradox 'there is no truth' explains the entirety of truth.

i have a high tolerance for them because they appear to exist, just like the halfwits and sophists that cyracuz alluded to.
0 Replies
 
carnaticmystery
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Dec, 2013 08:45 pm
@carnaticmystery,
Quote:
Present it as a possible form of REALITY...a guess about it...rather than as a messianic proclamation.

see, you insult me a thousand times, and then still REQUEST ME TO CONTINUE presenting my argument about reality.

it is you who is interested in my opinions, giving them relevance and reality to yourself.
0 Replies
 
carnaticmystery
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Dec, 2013 09:02 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
What you are struggling with is quite simple: a person adopting a radical non-dualist perspective is bound to dissolve his sense of self, as a distinct entity from the rest of the universe. He or she may gradually lose interest in the world, and in self.

i am not struggling. yes i adopted a radical nondualist perspective, that is naturally how my intellect went. i don't see anything wrong with all the consequent results you describe. you do not necessarily lose INTEREST in world and self just because you see them as united. you just don't believe in an ultimate reality behind them which simply LIMITS the apparent experience.

you say that a non dualist might "dissolve his sense of self, as a distinct entity from the rest of the universe." this is precisely the EXACT POINT of non dualism.


Quote:
Some philosophies can be harmful to your mental health.

mental health is a weakness of mind, and a RESULT of being steeped in duality too much. when one really believes that the external universe is separate, and they believe their own mind doesn't measure up, they label themselves mentally ill. then they take CNS depressants for the rest of their life and dull their entire experience to almost nothing.

a philosophy which unites you with all of life is certainly not bad for mental health. philosophies based on non duality are the millions of spiritual groups in india who are curing millions of mentally ill people every day.


Quote:
The way I see it, our mind functions based on a series of innate axioms which, when they work together, create a healthy (or not too unhealthy) mental space.

mental space need not be considered healthy or unhealthy, it only has to be that way with IDENTITY behind it. no identity, no health.

Quote:
For instance, one subset of axioms underwrites our innate 3D euclidian geometric system of space representation. Others are: a sense of self, of time, trust in our senses, and in a sense of agency, and in the existence of an objective world, a sense empathy for other humans, a very useful and complex sense of logic(s), a sense of beauty, etc. The funny thing is: we can contest and deny the validity of any of these 'innate senses' or 'common senses' in doing philosophy, but WE CANNOT REALLY THINK OUTSIDE of this innate mental axiomatic. Not in a healthy, productive way anyway. We can only become mad if we try hard enough to imagine a space in 4 dimensions.

i do not deny at all the entire experience of consciousness, and the multitude of beliefs and assumptions that go with it.

i agree that we can never 'think outside' the innate mental axiom. however, something in us is AWARE of the thinking process, as opposed to the actual thoughts themselves. the part of us that is aware of thoughts as they happen, is obviously a higher level of consciousness. if we identify with that part, then something else becomes aware of that part. infinitely, we can keep trying to be aware of the most primary aspect of our consciousness, but we can never succeed in that attempt. therefore, it becomes natural and intuitive to eventually accept the truth that consciousness itself is an eternal, neverending process. the reality of any content in consciousness is always questionable.

Quote:
Deny dualism at your own peril.

what is peril?? what are you so afraid of? death? the very idea of death only exists as opposed to life. people separate life and death, but why? nobody is in control of either. nobody knows what happens after death.

what about suffering in life? they are both improved by non-duality. physical suffering is not dwelt upon, and the quickest solution to fix it is found. mental suffering ceases to occur, because no identity exists behind the thinker.

the identity still appears to exist though, and therefore, life continues in a very open way. nothing matters or definitely exists, but it still appears to exist and you can still 'enjoy life', whatever is happening. good times are enjoyed, bad times are not cared about and don't last long. death is looked forward to as a new event for consciousness. life is equally looked forward to as every moment is a new event for consciousness.

there is no distinction between anything, and yet every moment of awareness is infinitely distinct in all possible ways. how is that paradox?
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Dec, 2013 09:13 pm
@spendius,
You misunderstand. I am not excluding anyone. Think of it as an insult buffet. You don't HAVE to eat just because it's free.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Dec, 2013 09:23 pm
@carnaticmystery,
Quote:
i agree that we can never 'think outside' the innate mental axiom. however, something in us is AWARE of the thinking process, as opposed to the actual thoughts themselves. the part of us that is aware of thoughts as they happen, is obviously a higher level of consciousness.

Not a higher but a different level. It's just one part of the brain monitoring another, hearing it think. I would venture to say the left brain monitors the right one and vice versa, in a mirror effect which may indeed create the illusion of an infinity of levels like when one puts two mirrors facing one another (think Citizen Kane). That would explain why the dog can't catch his tail, why we can't be fully conscious of our own conscience. Because we only have two brains, one that thinks, the other that monitors the thinking of the first.

Whatever it is that materially creates conscience, it can only manage well one level. At best one can scrap a few mental resources to vaguely echo the hearing self, ie of the first degree monitor.

Level 0: I think
Level 1: I hear me think
Level 2: I vaguely am aware that I hear myself thinking
Level 3: impossible, no echo at that level is humanely possible without forgetting entirely about level 0.

I also think only the first level of conscience is of material use. It's useful to monitor oneself, and thus 2 brains are better than 1. But 3 can be a crowd. Too many cooks.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Dec, 2013 09:48 pm
@carnaticmystery,
Quote:
mental space need not be considered healthy or unhealthy, it only has to be that way with IDENTITY behind it. no identity, no health.

Just because you deny your own existence does not mean you're right. Maybe you exist in spite of yourself...

You could also deny the existence of your body as a relevant unit of analysis -- we're all a big flux at the atomic level, you know the drill -- but I assure you that your body can become sick, and die and rot. And it'll be still part of the Big Flux, but in a different way. Your mind can also get sick, ESPECIALLY if it denies itself. It's a double bind and it leads to schizophrenia.
 

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