5
   

Snowden says the Russians and the Chinese did not receive classified info.

 
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Mon 21 Oct, 2013 06:32 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
...it is my opinion that he SHOULD be tried...


Of what possible use is the opinion of an apologist for war criminals and terrorists, Frank?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Mon 21 Oct, 2013 06:37 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Snowden said he wanted to live somewhere where the government where the government is not as intrusive as in America.

Interesting choice he made as an alternative.


Gee, we've never heard that piece of propaganda before, Frank. Did you think that up yourself?

Much better to live in the US, the home of the greatest terrorist group the world has ever known, the place where every prez since WWII is a war criminal.

Now that's a country that people should aspire to live in.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Mon 21 Oct, 2013 06:39 pm
@RABEL222,
Propaganda 101.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Mon 21 Oct, 2013 06:53 pm
@glitterbag,
Quote:
Well, after all, those unfortunate souls were not registered Republicans and they were unlucky enough to be citizens of other countries, I wonder what happened to those folks, didn't matter if they were recruited or just casual innocent non-players. Better than excellent chance they are no longer among the living.


Are you sure that Frank A wasn't supposed to deliver this meme, Glitter?

It's odd, not really, that these bits of propaganda keep surfacing. Has the government kept you on part time delivering their memes?

As of now, I don't believe that there have been any deaths attributable to these or any of the WikiLeaks leaks. Smile

For sheer volume of deaths from leaks you only have to look to your own governments. In all things sordid and evil, the US is far out in front.

I've supplied the link below, because I know how much you'll want to read this and pass it along to your fellow citizens.

Quote:
"...in four months,
five times as many
people died in
Indonesia as in
Vietnam in
twelve years."
-- Bertrand Russell, 1966

The following article appeared in the Spartanburg, South Carolina Herald-Journal on May 19, 1990, then in the San Francisco Examiner on May 20, 1990, the Washington Post on May 21, 1990, and the Boston Globe on May 23, 1990. The version below is from the Examiner.
Ex-agents say CIA compiled death lists for Indonesians
After 25 years, Americans speak of their
role in exterminating Communist Party
by Kathy Kadane, States News Service, 1990

WASHINGTON -- The U.S. government played a significant role in one of the worst massacres of the century by supplying the names of thousands of Communist Party leaders to the Indonesian army, which hunted down the leftists and killed them, former U.S. diplomats say.


http://www.namebase.org/kadane.html


0 Replies
 
glitterbag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Oct, 2013 09:19 pm
I'm just curious, but does anyone else remember the 10 member spy ring rounded up in the US late Summer 2010. They were Russian spy's, there is no absolute way of knowing if everyone was discovered. The spy's we caught were returned to Russia and greated by Putin as heros. So is Snowdon a hero or traitor? Is there anyone here who knows for certain the info he released was truly evidence their own government is their worst enemy or was it chock full of disinformation to confuse those easily confused. Personally, the guy who worked for Booze Allen for 10 weeks doesn't appear to be a true insider who magically acquired massive amounts of intell, outsmarted the American Government, the Chinese and the Russians managed to secure temporary asylum in Russia because Putin (with a straight face) feared sending back home because the Americans would murder him. I'm sure the idea of rounding up spy's and executing them without a trial strikes the former head of the KGB like
an icy stab in his heart. Bush gazed in his eyes and cleared him a good man, not the kind likely to send a punk band of females to prison for protesting his regime.

JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Oct, 2013 09:44 pm
@glitterbag,
Quote:
They were Russian spy's,


No, they were Russian SPIES, gb.

Quote:
I'm sure the idea of rounding up spy's and executing them without a trial strikes the former head of the KGB like an icy stab in his heart.


Kinda like this:

Quote:

http://www.namebase.org/kadane.html

"...in four months,
five times as many
people died in
Indonesia as in
Vietnam in
twelve years."
-- Bertrand Russell, 1966

[The following article appeared in the Spartanburg, South Carolina Herald-Journal on May 19, 1990, then in the San Francisco Examiner on May 20, 1990, the Washington Post on May 21, 1990, and the Boston Globe on May 23, 1990. The version below is from the Examiner.]

Ex-agents say CIA compiled death lists for Indonesians
After 25 years, Americans speak of their
role in exterminating Communist Party
by Kathy Kadane, States News Service, 1990

WASHINGTON -- The U.S. government played a significant role in one of the worst massacres of the century by supplying the names of thousands of Communist Party leaders to the Indonesian army, which hunted down the leftists and killed them, former U.S. diplomats say.

For the first time, U.S. officials acknowledge that in 1965 they systematically compiled comprehensive lists of Communist operatives, from top echelons down to village cadres. As many as 5,000 names were furnished to the Indonesian army, and the Americans later checked off the names of those who had been killed or captured, according to the U.S. officials.

The killings were part of a massive bloodletting that took an estimated 250,000 lives.

The purge of the Partai Komunis Indonesia (PKI) was part of a U.S. drive to ensure that Communists did not come to power in the largest country in Southeast Asia, where the United States was already fighting an undeclared war in Vietnam. Indonesia is the fifth most-populous country in the world.

Silent for a quarter-century, former senior U.S. diplomats and CIA officers described in lengthy interviews how they aided Indonesian President Suharto, then army leader, in his attack on the PKI.

"It really was a big help to the army," said Robert J. Martens, a former member of the U.S. Embassy's political section who is now a consultant to the State Department. "They probably killed a lot of people, and I probably have a lot of blood on my hands, but that's not all bad. There's a time when you have to strike hard at a decisive moment."

White House and State Department spokesmen declined comment on the disclosures.

Although former deputy CIA station chief Joseph Lazarsky and former diplomat Edward Masters, who was Martens' boss, said CIA agents contributed in drawing up the death lists, CIA spokesman Mark Mansfield said, "There is no substance to the allegation that the CIA was involved in the preparation and/or distribution of a list that was used to track down and kill PKI members. It is simply not true."

Indonesian Embassy spokesman Makarim Wibisono said he had no personal knowledge of events described by former U.S. officials. "In terms of fighting the Communists, as far as I'm concerned, the Indonesian people fought by themselves to eradicate the Communists," he said.

Martens, an experienced analyst of communist affairs, headed an embassy group of State Department and CIA officers that spent two years compiling the lists. He later delivered them to an army intermediary.

People named on the lists were captured in overwhelming numbers, Martens said, adding, "It's a big part of the reason the PKI has never come back."

The PKI was the third-largest Communist Party in the world, with an estimated 3 million members. Through affiliated organizations such as labor and youth groups it claimed the loyalties of another 17 million.

In 1966 the Washington Post published an estimate that 500,000 were killed in the purge and the brief civil war it triggered. In a 1968 report, the CIA estimated there had been 250,000 deaths, and called the carnage "one of the worst mass murders of the 20th century."

U.S. Embassy approval
Approval for the release of the names came from the top U.S. Embassy officials, including former Ambassador Marshall Green, deputy chief of mission Jack Lydman and political section chief Edward Masters, the three acknowledged in interviews.

Declassified embassy cables and State Department reports from early October 1965, before the names were turned over, show that U.S. officials knew Suharto had begun roundups of PKI cadres, and that the embassy had unconfirmed reports that firing squads were being formed to kill PKI prisoners.

Former CIA Director William Colby, in an interview, compared the embassy's campaign to identify the PKI leadership to the CIA's Phoenix Program in Vietnam. In 1965, Colby was the director of the CIA's Far East division and was responsible for directing U.S. covert strategy in Asia.

"That's what I set up in the Phoenix Program in Vietnam -- that I've been kicked around for a lot," he said. "That's exactly what it was. It was an attempt to identify the structure" of the Communist Party.

Phoenix was a joint U.S.-South Vietnamese program set up by the CIA in December 1967 that aimed at neutralizing members of the National Liberation Front, the Vietcong political cadres. It was widely criticized for alleged human rights abuses.

"You shoot them"
"The idea of identifying the local apparatus was designed to -- well, you go out and get them to surrender, or you capture or you shoot them," Colby said of the Phoenix Program. "I mean, it was a war, and they were fighting. So it was really aimed at providing intelligence for operations rather than a big picture of the thing."

In 1962, when he took over as chief of the CIA's Far East division, Colby said he discovered the United States did not have comprehensive lists of PKI activists. Not having the lists "could have been criticized as a gap in the intelligence system," he said, adding they were useful for "operation planning" and provided a picture of how the party was organized. Without such lists, he said, "you're fighting blind."

Asked if the CIA had been responsible for sending Martens, a foreign service officer, to Jakarta in 1963 to compile the lists, Colby said, "Maybe, I don't know. Maybe we did it. I've forgotten."

The lists were a detailed who's-who of the leadership of the party of 3 million members, Martens said. They included names of provincial, city and other local PKI committee members, and leaders of the "mass organizations," such as the PKI national labor federation, women's and youth groups.

Better information
"I know we had a lot more information" about the PKI "than the Indonesians themselves," Green said. Martens "told me on a number of occasions that ... the government did not have very good information on the Communist setup, and he gave me the impression that this information was superior to anything they had."

Masters, the embassy's political section chief, said he believed the army had lists of its own, but they were not as comprehensive as the American lists. He said he could not remember whether the decision to release the names had been cleared with Washington.

The lists were turned over piecemeal, Martens said, beginning at the top of the communist organization. Martens supplied thousands of names to an Indonesian emissary over a number of months, he said. The emissary was an aide to Adam Malik, an Indonesian minister who was an ally of Suharto in the attack on the Communists.

Interviewed in Jakarta, the aide, Tirta Kentjana ("Kim") Adhyatman, confirmed he had met with Martens and received lists of thousands of names, which he in turn gave to Malik. Malik passed them on to Suharto's headquarters, he said.

"Shooting list"
Embassy officials carefully recorded the subsequent destruction of the PKI organization. Using Martens' lists as a guide, they checked off names of captured and assassinated PKI leaders, tracking the steady dismantling of the party apparatus, former U.S. officials said.

Information about who had been captured and killed came from Suharto's headquarters, according to Joseph Lazarsky, deputy CIA station chief in Jakarta in 1965. Suharto's Jakarta headquarters was the central collection point for military reports from around the country detailing the capture and killing of PKI leaders, Lazarsky said.

"We were getting a good account in Jakarta of who was being picked up," Lazarsky said. "The army had a 'shooting list' of about 4,000 or 5,000 people."

Detention centers were set up to hold those who were not killed immediately.

"They didn't have enough goon squads to zap them all, and some individuals were valuable for interrogation," Lazarsky said. "The infrastructure was zapped almost immediately. We knew what they were doing. We knew they would keep a few and save them for the kangaroo courts, but Suharto and his advisers said, if you keep them alive, you have to feed them."

Masters, the chief of the political section, said, "We had these lists" constructed by Martens, "and we were using them to check off what was happening to the party, what the effect" of the killings "was on it."

Lazarsky said the checkoff work was also carried out at the CIA's intelligence directorate in Washington.

Leadership destroyed
By the end of January 1966, Lazarsky said, the checked-off names were so numerous the CIA analysts in Washington concluded the PKI leadership had been destroyed.

"No one cared, as long as they were Communists, that they were being butchered," said Howard Federspiel, who in 1965 was the Indonesia expert at the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research. "No one was getting very worked up about it."

Asked about the checkoffs, Colby said, "We came to the conclusion that with the sort of Draconian way it was carried out, it really set them" -- the communists -- "back for years."

Asked if he meant the checkoffs were proof that the PKI leadership had been caught or killed, he said, "Yeah, yeah, that's right, ... the leading elements, yeah."


http://www.namebase.org/kadane.html
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Oct, 2013 05:32 am
@glitterbag,
glitterbag wrote:

So is Snowdon a hero or traitor?


I think he is neither a hero nor a traitor.

But he does stand accused of stealing classified documents and causing them to be released to people not authorized access to them...and I think he should be tried on that particular charge.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Oct, 2013 09:28 am
@Frank Apisa,
Now that's top notch Frank Apisa editorial writing. Will it go to TIME or NEWSWEEK?
0 Replies
 
 

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