God...why would he not show his face or an miracle to save millions!

Ezekiel and Daniel were so gay.

@Frank Apisa,

Frank. I know you don't believe the Bible. But as long as you wish to use the Bible as an ambidexter weapon of impeachment, you could at least allow me to present its text. If the Hebrew scriptures don't give internal evidence of Israel's unfaithfulness, show us.
If you don't believe my exegesis, say so.
But if you don't believe the Bible claims There was a flood, claims the Red Sea parted. claims David killed Goliath, or claims God is love, I no longer have anything to present.

1 Reply

@Setanta,

I don't know those two. Ask Rex.

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Frank. I know you don't believe the Bible. But as long as you wish to use the Bible as an ambidexter weapon of impeachment, you could at least allow me to present its text. If the Hebrew scriptures don't give internal evidence of Israel's unfaithfulness, show us.
If you don't believe my exegesis, say so.
But if you don't believe the Bible claims There was a flood, claims the Red Sea parted. claims David killed Goliath, or claims God is love, I no longer have anything to present.

neologist wrote:

Frank. I know you don't believe the Bible. But as long as you wish to use the Bible as an ambidexter weapon of impeachment, you could at least allow me to present its text. If the Hebrew scriptures don't give internal evidence of Israel's unfaithfulness, show us.
If you don't believe my exegesis, say so.
But if you don't believe the Bible claims There was a flood, claims the Red Sea parted. claims David killed Goliath, or claims God is love, I no longer have anything to present.

I am not in any way questioning your right to produce whatever you choose from the Bible to talk about what the Bible says. I often quote from the Bible...to talk about what the Bible says.

There is nothing wrong with that.

But to suggest, as you did, that the ancient Hebrews HAD PROOF...is simply gratuitous...and I wanted to point that out. I was honestly not making that big an issue of it...but you, in effect, have. Or at least, that is my opinion.

We can leave this now...we've talked it to death. The point you were trying to make to the original poster makes no sense. If a GOD were actually to show ITSELF…in an unambiguous way (which any GOD should be able to do)…there are many people who would readjust some of their thinking because of that absolute certainty. (Especially if the GOD is the kind of god supposed in the Bible…a duplicitous, cheating, murderous, quick-to-anger/slow-to-forgive, demanding, petty, tyrannical barbaric jerk.)

So your comment struck me as poor logic…and I mentioned it.

That is the idea behind A2K...have ideas...share them.

1 Reply

@neologist,

Like I said, the Bible makes fascinating reading, all I'm saying is that we shouldn't lose our focus on Jesus by getting bogged down in OT stuff.
After all, the OT says to kill gays, witches and adulteresses, and to take eye-for-eye revenge on people, but Jesus trashed all that.
And yes, many ancient prophecies can also apply to modern times, that's what I mean about "fascinating reading".. Smile

For example-

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/eagleA.png

"Cover their faces with shame so that men will seek your name, O Lord" (Psalm 83:16)

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/sub1/ba5c8ccf.jpg

"He who digs a hole and scoops it out falls into the pit he has made" (Psalm 7:15)

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/ExIS/saddam-captured.jpg

"And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord.." (Isaiah 2:10)

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/sub3/cave.jpg

"The spider taketh hold with her hands, and is in kings palaces" (Proverbs 30:28 KJV)
US troops near one of Saddam Hussein's abandoned palaces in Bayji,Iraq 2008

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/sub4/iraqpalace2008.jpg

"Raise a banner on a bare hilltop, I have summoned my warriors to carry out my wrath..they come from faraway lands..to destroy the whole country..and destroy the sinners within it" (Isaiah ch 13)

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/iwoflag.jpg

‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!" (Revelation 18:2)
Troops after capturing Baghdad International Airport-

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/sub4/Baghd-intnatl-airport03.jpg

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

And my point is that,according to the Exodus account, God did show himself in an unambiguous way and the Jews started rebelling almost immediately after.

The only sign I focus on is the quality of love. I and my friends and family have it to an imperfect degree and work to refine it. If there exists a God who created us, He must possess the quality of love in the superlative. That sign has continued to define my understanding.

As Paul said in Romans 1:20: "For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable"

1 Reply

@Romeo Fabulini,

If you truly equate the recent (apparent) subjugation of Iraq to the fall of Babylon the Great as defined in Revelation, you are sadly deficient in your understanding.

0 Replies

@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Like I said, the Bible makes fascinating reading, all I'm saying is that we shouldn't lose our focus on Jesus by getting bogged down in OT stuff.
After all, the OT says to kill gays, witches and adulteresses, and to take eye-for-eye revenge on people, but Jesus trashed all that.

C'mon, Romeo...get real.

The laws of Leviticus and Deuteronomy do indeed say to "kill gays, witches, and adulteresses and to take eye-for-eye revenge on people"...and a bunch of other disgusting stuff. But to suggest that Jesus trashed all that is absurd.

Here is what Jesus had to say about the law:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not to abolish them, but to fulfill them. Of this much I assure you; UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, not the smallest letter of the law, not the smallest part of a letter shall be done away with until it all comes true."

Matthew 5:17ff

Jesus did not trash the law...he said he was not here to change it in any way.

0 Replies

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

And my point is that,according to the Exodus account, God did show himself in an unambiguous way and the Jews started rebelling almost immediately after.

BUT THAT IS NOT PROOF OF ANYTHING...because it may be (and likely is) nothing but a fairy tale.

There is no PROOF that anybody every has seen a GOD...in any way.

Quote:

The only sign I focus on is the quality of love. I and my friends and family have it to an imperfect degree and work to refine it. If there exists a God who created us, He must possess the quality of love in the superlative. That sign has continued to define my understanding.

As Paul said in Romans 1:20: "For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable"

Good for you. I also focus on love...and appreciation of my fellow human being. But that has nothing to do with what we were discussing.

0 Replies

Frank Apisa said:

Quote:

Jesus did not trash the law...he said he was not here to change it in any way

Nevertheless, Exodus 21:24, Lev. 24:20 and Deut. 19:21 all promoted "eye for eye" yet he trashed it bigtime-
"It was said 'eye for eye,tooth for tooth' but I say turn the other cheek" (Matt 5:38/39)

And of course he also rescued an adulteress from the mob who want to stone her.
His ground rules trump everything that went before -
"Love one another, feed the hungry, house the homeless, clothe the destitute, tend the sick, visit the prisoners, look after the poor"- Jesus of Nazareth (Mark 12:30, John 13:34, Matt 25: 37-40)

and people soon cottoned on-
"The covenant of which Jesus is mediator is superior to the old one" (Heb 8:6)

So if people still want to go out killing gays, witches and naughty girls etc under the old laws I'm sure he'd be none too pleased.. Wink

"In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30)

1 Reply

@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Frank Apisa said:

Quote:
Jesus did not trash the law...he said he was not here to change it in any way

Nevertheless, Exodus 21:24, Lev. 24:20 and Deut. 19:21 all promoted "eye for eye" yet he trashed it bigtime-
"It was said 'eye for eye,tooth for tooth' but I say turn the other cheek" (Matt 5:38/39)

Are you saying he was a liar...or he was a hypocrite?

Or maybe you are saying he was a politician...saying one thing to one audience and another when the audience changed.

Quote:

And of course he also rescued an adulteress from the mob who want to stone her.
His ground rules trump everything that went before -
"Love one another, feed the hungry, house the homeless, clothe the destitute, tend the sick, visit the prisoners, look after the poor"- Jesus of Nazareth (Mark 12:30, John 13:34, Matt 25: 37-40)

and people soon cottoned on-
"The covenant of which Jesus is mediator is superior to the old one" (Heb 8:6)

So if people still want to go out killing gays, witches and naughty girls etc under the old laws I'm sure he'd be none too pleased..
"In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30)

Same question.

0 Replies

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

I don't know those two. Ask Rex.

Hehehe . . . you're a nasty piece of work from time to time, Neo . . .

http://remasteredaccountman.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/neo.jpg

1 Reply

Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:

Are you saying he was a liar...or he was a hypocrite?
Or maybe you are saying he was a politician...saying one thing to one audience and another when the audience change

Jesus trusted us to use our commonsense to see the Big Picture and not get stuck in blind alleys by clinging to one or two verses out of context like fundies and cultists do.. Smile

1 Reply

@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
Are you saying he was a liar...or he was a hypocrite?
Or maybe you are saying he was a politician...saying one thing to one audience and another when the audience change

Jesus trusted us to use our commonsense to see the Big Picture and not get stuck in blind alleys by clinging to one or two verses out of context like fundies and cultists do..

Ummmm...does that mean you are saying he was a liar?

Or does it mean you are saying he was a hypocrite?

(By the way...he did not even know about the two verses we are discussing. They weren't even written until long after his death.)

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Actually, Frank, the law is still relevant as far as revealing God's standards and directing attention to the divinity of Jesus. However, Jesus fulfilled the law, which is why even nominal christians no longer stone adulterers. Paul explained this in Galatians 2: 24,25 "Consequently the Law has become our tutor leading to Christ, that we might be declared righteous due to faith. 25 But now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a tutor."

Christians even (gasp) stopped the practice of circumcision. (1 Corinthians 7:19)

1 Reply

@Setanta,

neologist wrote:

I don't know those two. Ask Rex.

Setanta wrote:

Hehehe . . . you're a nasty piece of work from time to time, Neo . . .

You wouldn't laugh if you always had those dotty bubbly things.

0 Replies

Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:

Ummmm...does that mean you are saying he was a liar?
Or does it mean you are saying he was a hypocrite?
(By the way...he did not even know about the two verses we are discussing. They weren't even written until long after his death.)

What two verses?
And I see you ask the liar/hypocrite question again despite me having answered it once already, so let me try a second time to see if you have better luck taking it on board-
A new golfer waltzes into your golf club and starts showing a few new stances, strokes and swings and some members say "Hey that works for me!".
But some fuddy-duddy members say to him "Who do you think you are? Are you trying to trash the old ways?", and he replies "I'm not trying to trash anything, I'm just showing you a few new moves!"

Same with Jesus when he said he wasn't trying to trash the old law wholesale, he was simply showing people a more enlightened way to play.. Smile

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

"Romeo Fabulini: another hole in one!"

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/zu1sA_zps94c5327a.jpg~original

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Actually, Frank, the law is still relevant as far as revealing God's standards and directing attention to the divinity of Jesus. However, Jesus fulfilled the law, which is why even nominal christians no longer stone adulterers. Paul explained this in Galatians 2: 24,25 "Consequently the Law has become our tutor leading to Christ, that we might be declared righteous due to faith. 25 But now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a tutor."

Christians even (gasp) stopped the practice of circumcision. (1 Corinthians 7:19)

Anyone who wants to interpret the meeting mentioned in Galatians as meaning that the law no longer applies...is grasping at straws, Neo.

The meeting was primarily convened to discuss whether gentile converts had to be circumcised. It was expanded to include discussions about dietary prohibitions for gentile converts (some of which continued to apply.)

"The law" was not changed.

And you really should stick with what Jesus said about whether the law was changed...rather than with Paul...unless you are suggesting that Paul was saying that Jesus was a liar or a hypocrite.

So which is it, Neo. Are you calling Jesus a liar or a hypocrite?

2 Replies

@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
Ummmm...does that mean you are saying he was a liar?
Or does it mean you are saying he was a hypocrite?
(By the way...he did not even know about the two verses we are discussing. They weren't even written until long after his death.)

What two verses?
And I see you ask the liar/hypocrite question again despite me having answered it once already, so let me try a second time to see if you have better luck taking it on board-
A new golfer waltzes into your golf club and starts showing a few new stances, strokes and swings and some members say "Hey that works for me!".
But some fuddy-duddy members say to him "Who do you think you are? Are you trying to trash the old ways?", and he replies "I'm not trying to trash anything, I'm just showing you a few new moves!"

Same with Jesus when he said he wasn't trying to trash the old law wholesale, he was simply showing people a more enlightened way to play..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

"Romeo Fabulini: another hole in one!"

I didn't say he trashed the old law...Neo did.

But since Jesus said he was not on Earth to change the law...not one word...not one letter...not one stroke of one letter...

...any change at all would prompt my question.

Now...try actually answering it rather than beating around the bush.

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Neo...in case you want a more comprehensive response to your comments, here is a link to a thread of mine of a while back that deals comprehensively with that meeting:

http://able2know.org/topic/128690-1

0 Replies

God...why would he not show his face or an miracle to save millions!

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