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dialect and standard English

 
 
WBYeats
 
Reply Sun 29 Sep, 2013 02:30 am
In this forum we are talking about standard English. But in dialects in the UK, HE/SHE can be used as object pronouns; HE DON'T KNOW is acceptable, etc. If there's such a substantial difference, in dialects in the UK and the US, is there any difference with standard English in articles/plural forms/prepositions?

For example, we just say Harvard/Harvard University in standard English, but in dialects in the UK and US, would people add THE before 'Harvard University'?

For example, we say ON FACEBOOK, in dialects would they say IN FACEBOOK?

For example, we say Merton College, never THE Merton College, in dialects would they say THE Merton College?

Thank you. WB.
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contrex
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Sep, 2013 02:45 am
There are few "standard" forms of English (which have "rules"), but many dialects, (which don't consistently share "rules") so your question is meaningless.
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Sep, 2013 02:47 am
@WBYeats,
WBYeats wrote:
But in dialects in the UK, HE/SHE can be used as object pronouns; HE DON'T KNOW is acceptable, etc.


The non-standard feature of that is "don't (="doesn't") know", not "he".
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JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sun 29 Sep, 2013 11:00 am
@WBYeats,
Quote:
In this forum we are talking about standard English. But in dialects in the UK, HE/SHE can be used as object pronouns; HE DON'T KNOW is acceptable, etc.


That's not an example of HE being used as an object pronoun.

We also discuss a lot of nonstandard English, WB. It's vitally important to do that because that is the vast majority of most English speakers' language use. For ESLs to become truly fluent, it is more important to focus on many aspects of nonstandard English.

Nonstandard English is not bad or incorrect English, it is simply another register of English. Again, it is the English that most of us use in our daily lives and as such, it is by far thee most frequently used register of English. Standard English varies in different registers - newspaper/media; academic; fiction


[/quote]If there's such a substantial difference, in dialects in the UK and the US, is there any difference with standard English in articles/plural forms/prepositions?
For example, we just say Harvard/Harvard University in standard English, but in dialects in the UK and US, would people add THE before 'Harvard University'?

For example, we say ON FACEBOOK, in dialects would they say IN FACEBOOK?

For example, we say Merton College, never THE Merton College, in dialects would they say THE Merton College?[/quote]

There are some differences even between the major dialects AmE, BrE, AuE, CdE, NzE, GhE, etc.
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WBYeats
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Oct, 2013 10:01 pm
@contrex,
Thank you, Contrex. But what do you mean by 'There are few "standard" forms of English'?

I'll return for JTT's reply.
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Oct, 2013 01:30 am
@WBYeats,
WBYeats wrote:

Thank you, Contrex. But what do you mean by 'There are few "standard" forms of English'?

I'll return for JTT's reply.


"Few" means not very many. There are a number of "standard" forms of English: (this is not an exhaustive list, but the point is valid) US English, UK English, International English, Business English, (etc) and there are many dialects and informal forms.
Setanta
  Selected Answer
 
  2  
Reply Wed 2 Oct, 2013 02:01 am
Your examples here are confused. The use of the definite article is not a matter of "standard" English, nor is is subject to a "rule" change in dialects. In my experience, this is something which is carved in stone. If someone were to say "the Harvard University," it would always be wrong, because that is not a part of the proper name of that university. Furthermore, in cases where the definite article is used, it's not going to be capitalized unless it is the initial word of the sentence. So, for example, one would write: "I read it in the New York Times." It would only be capitalized if it were the first word of a sentence: "The New York Times first reported this story."

Some confusion might arise in the case of universities because of structure. One writes: "the Harvard University Press." But the definite article is attached to the word press: "the Harvard University Press." The construction is actually "the press of Harvard University," meaning their publishing services; that applies when it is a formal title, "the Harvard University Press." Whenever a construction requires the definite article, it is reasonable to say that one is wrong not to use it ("I read it in the New York Times," but not "I read it in New York Times"). It is reasonable to say that one is wrong to use or not to use the definite article based on whether or not it is a part of a title. For universities, the definite article is only used when a division or school of the university is mentioned: "the Harvard University Press," or "the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine."

Prepositions are an entirely different matter, and cannot be said to be governed in the same manner as the definite article. The use of prepositions may well change based on what may loosely be called dialect, but, i think, only major dialects. This may be a poor example, but in American usage one would say "He's in university right now." (Americans would be more likely to say college rather than university, but that's a different can of worms, not to be opened here.) I believe in British English one would say "He's at university." Others would have to make that clear for you. For the life of me, i cannot think right now (very early in my morning) of good examples of different uses of prepositions, but i feel certain there are.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Oct, 2013 06:58 am
@contrex,
Quote:
International English, Business English, (etc)


These are not examples of standard English. BrE has its standard form just as AuE has its standard form, as does the US, Canada, Ghana, India, New Zealand, ... .

Standard English simply means the form used more for the written/formal registers of English. There's nothing magical or correct or proper about standard English, it's simply certain conventions followed for certain registers.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Oct, 2013 07:03 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
If someone were to say "the Harvard University," it would always be wrong, because that is not a part of the proper name of that university.


Do you mean the Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts, Set?
0 Replies
 
 

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