nor is

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AnXagedXmanXisXbutXaXpaltryXthing,
AXtatteredXcoatXuponXaXstick,Xunless
SoulXclapXitsXhandsXandXsing,XandXlouderXsing
ForXeveryXtatterXinXitsXmortalXdress,
NorXisXthereXsingingXschoolXbutXstudying
MonumentsXofXitsXownXmagnificence;
AndXthereforexIxhavexsailedxthexseasxandxcome
ToxthexholyxcityxofxByzantium.
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For the NOR in the stanza, can I say the BUT in the first line is not the negative antecedent, and there's no negative element before NOR in this poem?

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Type: Question • Score: 3 • Views: 607 • Replies: 11

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View best answer, chosen by WBYeats

The antecedent is the negation implied in the conditional "unless."

What's with the hidden "Xs" between the words in your stanza?

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@WBYeats,

Quote:

and there's no negative element before NOR in this poem?

The "paltry thing" is probably your neg

But I have to give you cred WB for the observation. After a lifetime in journ I'm continually amazed at the determination of the typical a2k esl, far beyond curiosity I had ever entertained

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@dalehileman,

Quote:

After a lifetime in journ I'm continually amazed at the determination of the typical a2k esl, far beyond curiosity I had ever entertained

Curiosity about language and its grammar in the US has long been killed by the idiotic rules that are force fed to students. All you would have been exposed to in a lifetime of journalism, Dale, would pretty much be these zombie rules.

1 Reply

@JTT,

Well JTT yes and no. For the most part there's much truth in that, especially by the fanatic linguist. However, some of the rules make common sense because they prevent an instantaneous misreading, however brief

Though please don't ask me to cite example

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@dalehileman,

Quote:

However, some of the rules make common sense

That they do, Dale. Those are the ones that you learned by age five. The ones that carried you thru a lifetime of journalizing. Smile

Quote:

Though please don't ask me to cite example

I wouldn't think of it, Dale.

1 Reply

@JTT,

Quote:

The ones that carried you thru a lifetime of journalizing

Lotsa truth to that, JTT. Such rules oughta be emphasized in favor of all the rest, if for no other reason to avoid discouragement by their sheer volume

1 Reply

@dalehileman,

By only the sheerest coincidence JTT in this morning's fourth estate, by AP. The soldiers were told its was a job for men: They were to bring the residents of a small Guatemalan village to a well where they would be killed and their bodies dumped inside

Now I'll be first to admit that I'm of a rare breed who can misread almost anything, but the second "they" gives the instantaneous impression that it was the soldiers who were tossed in the well

Granted, hardly a perfect example of the kind of thing upon which we were ruminating, merely an example of a sentence construction of instantaneous causation, of however fleeting duration

2 Replies

@dalehileman,

Quote:

The soldiers were told its was a job for men: They were to bring the residents of a small Guatemalan village to a well where they would be killed and their bodies dumped inside

Now I'll be first to admit that I'm of a rare breed who can misread almost anything, but the second "they" gives the instantaneous impression that it was the soldiers who were tossed in the well

It doesn't, Dale, either grammatically or logically. You are experiencing a typical over reaction to the nonsense that has been part of the US English education system for a few centuries.

Quote:

April 17, 2009
50 Years of Stupid Grammar Advice
By Geoffrey K. Pullum

April 16 is the 50th anniversary of the publication of a little book that is loved and admired throughout American academe. Celebrations, readings, and toasts are being held, and a commemorative edition has been released.

I won't be celebrating.

The Elements of Style does not deserve the enormous esteem in which it is held by American college graduates. Its advice ranges from limp platitudes to inconsistent nonsense. Its enormous influence has not improved American students' grasp of English grammar; it has significantly degraded it.

...

http://chronicle.com/article/50-Years-of-Stupid-Grammar/25497

[added emphasis is mine]

1 Reply

@dalehileman,

dalehileman wrote:

The soldiers were told its was a job for men: They were to bring the residents of a small Guatemalan village to a well where they would be killed and their bodies dumped inside

Quote:

the second "they" gives the instantaneous impression that it was the soldiers who were tossed in the well

Come on now: we are told that soldiers are give a job for "men", namely to bring some villagers to a well. Next we learn that "they" will be killed and dumped in the well. Knowing what we do about Guatemala or Vietnam or wherever, why would anybody suppose the villagers are going to overpower the soldiers and kill them all? You might as well say "The cats jumped on the mice after which they were all eaten" means that the mice ate the cats.

1 Reply

@contrex,

Quote:

why would anybody suppose the villagers are going to overpower the soldiers and kill them all?

Well Con I admitted that few others would so misread

But we'll never know since even fewer others would so admit

0 Replies

@JTT,

My monstrous military impression merely a momentary misapprehension

Yes, no, fellas, come on now, wouldn't it be better writ, eg, "…where these unfortunate civilians would be killed…."

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nor is

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