Did I Hear Bush Right

Scrat wrote:

I know of no one on our side who is using the name of God in this way.

You mean, other than Bush, Rove, Ashcroft, and the looney General in charge of Pentagon Intel? Rolling Eyes

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Scrat wrote:

It's sad that this vocal minority fears the mention of God more than the reality of terrorism.

It's heartening to remember that you are a very small minority.

What I fear are the crazy bastards who believe that God is on the side of war and death, and the even crazier bastards who think those who say it believe it.......

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BoGoWo wrote:

So then, why don't they do what every 'rational' king, emporer, or dictator of the past has frequently done;
put their 'champion' in the field, winner takes all, let the best ...er...'god' win.
the god of Islam vs the 'god' of Christianity; they could sell the TV rights for millions, and the gambling sites would drool over it.

And, best of all, it would leave all the innocent civilians out of it.

The pay for view fees would certainly take care of the National Debt....even after Clear Channel tithed back to bush inc ........ Laughing

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Looking at this from a theological perspective... it doesn't make any sense.

Couldn't God do a better job than this?

I mean, If God were really on Bush's side I would expect that things would be going better.

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Good point, EBrown . . . i was astounded when Shirley made this statement: "That so many are willing to judge him and others on their FAITH rather than on their ACTIONS is what I consider bigoted."

To get it out of the way immediately, bigotry is the belief that one is a member of a uniquely superior group. If Shirley wants to argue that, fine, but the criticisms to which it refers are not axiomatically demonstrable bigotry.

The laughable thing about that is that the Shrub and those who would impose a religious agenda on the nation are being criticized for their actions as opposed to their faith. The objection is not to the religious belief, but, rather the imposition of said belief on others without their consent, which is precisely what happens when the chief magistrate informs military and foreign relations policy decisions from a claim of having god on his side, and doing the good work of christianity. Millions at the least, and perhaps tens of millions of christians in this nation do not share those views, and it is not simply the irreligious or the areligious who feel imposed upon.

People here, and across the country are not engaging in bigotry, and they are down on the Shrub and crew because of their actions, not their faith, and the probable consequences of such foolishly ill-considered actions.

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Bi-Polar Bear wrote:

Scrat wrote:
It's sad that this vocal minority fears the mention of God more than the reality of terrorism.

It's heartening to remember that you are a very small minority.

What I fear are the crazy bastards who believe that God is on the side of war and death, and the even crazier bastards who think those who say it believe it.......

May God deliver you from those crazy bastards. Cool

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ebrown_p wrote:

Looking at this from a theological perspective... it doesn't make any sense.

Couldn't God do a better job than this?

I mean, If God were really on Bush's side I would expect that things would be going better.

That argument would also tend to assume that murder and rape would never occur. Now, given that murder and rape continue to occur, do you believe that fact disproves the notion that God is against rape and murder, or on the side of those who oppose rape and murder? Or is it reasonable for those who are against rape and murder to assume and even to state that God is on their side, even if their side never fully wins?

Bush believes God is on the side of those who would end terrorism. I'd like to think he's right. Wouldn't you?

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Scrat - why do you think there is nothing wrong with a president/whatever making the statement that god is on our side?

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Edit: [delete double post]
The last line was new in the second post, the rest was identical.

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Scrat,

(This discussion has a lot to do with whether we are talking about a Biblical view of God or not. If we assume we are talking about the God of the Bible, I can give a more complete actions.)

But, making broad generalizations that God wants what is best for the world, it is clear that God is not on the side of Bush.

The war in Iraq has nothing to do with ending terrorism. Quite the contrary, those who support terrorism are quite a bit stronger now thanks to Bush's military adventure.

And for you example, it is not reasonable to state that God is on the side of people who are against rape and murder.

It depends on what these people stand for and what they are doing to oppose rape and murder. If, for example, your way to end rape and murder involved bombing the areas where these crimes happen, I would assume that God would be against that.

If a "war on terrorism" involved bombing and killing and results in more hardship, death, sadness, lying, hatred, poverty and anger, I would assume that any just God would be against this.

However, it is certain that the God of the Bible would be against this war. I will go into specifics if you would like.

It is clear from the Bible that commiting evil to fight evil is never justified.

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This may have already been said:

There is nothing that al Queda would like better than to make this conflict a war between competing Gods.

Bush is on record as as a true (though belated ) believer, one for whom Jesus is "the greatest philosopher of all time."

Yes, say the Islamic terrorists, yes, let's test to see who's God is most powerful.

Note to Bush: It's a trap, you dolt.

Joe

Joe

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Good point Joe . . . Hey, George, its a double trap, they have actually thought out in advance what they will do and the likely consequences . . .

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Scrat wrote:

ebrown_p wrote:
.............Now, given that murder and rape continue to occur, do you believe that fact disproves the notion that God is against rape and murder, or on the side of those who oppose rape and murder? Or is it reasonable for those who are against rape and murder to assume and even to state that God is on their side, even if their side never fully wins?..........

No i would say that renders it very likely that all the calls in the world to dieties for assistance will fall on 'no' ears!
(if you want something done right, do it yourself!)

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Joe,

Perhaps it's not a trap at all. It seems like Bush, like the terrorists, "would like [nothing] better than to make this conflict a war between competing Gods. ".

Maybe this is one of those win-win situations.

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dlowan wrote:

Scrat - why do you think there is nothing wrong with a president/whatever making the statement that god is on our side?

I would think that is clear from my writings up to this point, but I'll try to answer it again, since it must not be so clear as I think.

1) There is nothing inherently wrong with having the President be a man of faith. (In fact, I prefer it, and care not whether he shares my specific faith or spiritual views.)

2) There is nothing inherently wrong with a person of faith making statements of his faith.

3) There is nothing inherently wrong with a person of faith acting based on his understanding of that faith and his belief in what God intends for him and circles of society around him.

4) There can be trivial or terrible things wrong with the actions of individuals, and individuals sometimes attribute their actions to their religious beliefs, but we must differentiate between the actions and the faith, or we condemn all who believe for the actions of some who believe. That terrorists often claim they are acting based on their faith in Allah and Islam, does not mean that all those who believe they are guided by Allah are terrorists, or that we should fear all who make such claims.

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There is somehting horribly wrong with a president who tells foreign reportrs that the reason he is invading anotehr country is becasue "god" told him to do so. This is not the behaviour of a sane individual. Can you understand this concept? Have you been following the news recently? So far, "god" has told a woman to drown her children anotehr to stone them to death, anotehr to slaughter his wife and family and yank out his own eyeball! I think it is probably safe to conclude that people who think "god" tells them what to do are CRAZY[/color]!!!!! This is the sort of person we have in the White House. Am I the only one who thinks this is a very bad situation? Shocked

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Whew! Joe is here! A breath of fresh air!!!

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Scrat wrote:

dlowan wrote:
Scrat - why do you think there is nothing wrong with a president/whatever making the statement that god is on our side?

I would think that is clear from my writings up to this point, but I'll try to answer it again, since it must not be so clear as I think.

1) There is nothing inherently wrong with having the President be a man of faith. (In fact, I prefer it, and care not whether he shares my specific faith or spiritual views.)

Ok to here Scrat - of course, we differ in preferring it - but that is a matter of opinion.

Scrat wrote:

2) There is nothing inherently wrong with a person of faith making statements of his faith.

Yep - no problems with this - although is not your president supposed to be the head of a government of a secular state - ie is not religion and government supposed not to mix? However - presidents have often made such statements about being christians and such.

Scrat wrote:

3) There is nothing inherently wrong with a person of faith acting based on his understanding of that faith and his belief in what God intends for him and circles of society around him.

Yes - but his or her actions may still be judged and their appropriateness or not subjected to scrutiny.

I think the actions of a person in Bush's position are rightly subjected to more scrutiny, because they have more effect on others, than do the actions of the average person.

Scrat wrote:

4) There can be trivial or terrible things wrong with the actions of individuals, and individuals sometimes attribute their actions to their religious beliefs, but we must differentiate between the actions and the faith, or we condemn all who believe for the actions of some who believe. That terrorists often claim they are acting based on their faith in Allah and Islam, does not mean that all those who believe they are guided by Allah are terrorists, or that we should fear all who make such claims.

Huh? Not sure what I said to get that said.

Bush has said god is on his side in Iraq.

He's not just some holy-roller in the backwoods of Texas or somewhere.

He is president of the most powerful country on earth.

I am not talking about what some obscure person of faith says or does.

I am talking about your president claiming that the christian god is on his side about going to war.

The man presumably believes it - and if he does, I say again that I find that terrifying because I find his view his view of a deity both primitive and personally disgusting, just as I find the maunderings of the religious zealots on the other side so, and also, in our current state of societal development unbalanced, just as I find the thinking of the religious fanatics who are terrorists, or those who support them, to be so.

I am surprised to see the leader of a country like the US lower himself to their level in this matter.

I am making no comment on his faith - just as I make no comment on Islam in general - although I have opinions re both.

I am commenting on the way in which Bush interprets his faith.

I am sorry I did not make that clear, I thought it was so.

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dlowan wrote:

I think the actions of a person in Bush's position are rightly subjected to more scrutiny, because they have more effect on others, than do the actions of the average person.

I agree, and find no fault with those who seek to fault his actions. I do find fault with those who seek to fault him for his faith.

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In a time of war Id like to have a president with enough wisdom to say something attributed to lincoln

"God may be on our side, but everything being equal, id rather have Kentucky"

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Did I Hear Bush Right

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