And let me guess, there are dragons, and talking trees there?
SCoates wrote:Relative wrote:Religious institutions make people think illogically, and this is not good for us. Logic has proven itself to be very successfull.
Other than this, and what follows from this, I see no problems.
Relative
As difficult as it may be to believe, there are religions that condone logic. Indeed, those which are based on it.
If by "logic" you mean "absurd delusion" then I agree completely.
Faith and logic is a contradiction in terms.
They don't have to be each other's opposites. Faith can very often be alogical (outside the bounds of logic) rather than illogical (contradictory to logic).
The Christian faith has stood as a barrier against barbarism, both internal and external, for how many centuries now, and I still read these idiotic claims that we need to get rid of it
The following is coming to a neighborhood near you. See if you can picture secular humanism protecting you from it.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38509
The link below is to a picture of a guy who was walking around in grizzly country worrying about ducks and geese biting him, sort of like living in a world in which Islam exists and worrying about being harassed by Christians. The guy had a 38 caliber revolver on him, which is an obvious indication that he was not concerned about grizzlies since there isn't really that much difference between shooting a grizzly with a 38 and trying to take it out with a left hook.
http://mountainsurvival.com/news_articles/eaten.html
Cephus wrote:
Actually, much of Europe currently has gay marriage. I recently spoke to someone from the Netherlands who tells me that they've had gay marriage for quite some time and it's been extremely successful. Divorce among gay marriages is less than half of what it is among straight marriages.
If you go back in history, the Greeks and Romans both had what amounted to gay marriage, as well as many other cultures.
There is a world outside the US, you know.
Yes, I think it is safe to say that people can be all
screwed up and backwards and still be extremely
successful at it.
Yes, and the Greek and Roman empires fell flat not
so very long after that preversion started running
rampant in their cultures. One thing we have learned
from history is that we don't learn from history.
Yes, there is a world outside the US, but who in their
right minds would want to leave to go live in most
of it? We have a lot of Americans that would certainly
qualify, but I don't see them moving there en masse.
Reqretfully.
zgreatarteest wrote:
Yes, there is a world outside the US, but who in their
right minds would want to live in most of it? We have
a lot of Americans that would certainly qualify, but I
don't see them moving there en masse. Reqretfully.
as I already said I would always choose USA over Iraq as place of living, but would also choose every single european country over USA.
This way I don't need Dr.Phil to tell me that I should talk with my partner if I think we have problems, I can tell all kinds of jokes on all possible places and not only that I will not end up on court but no one will cry when he or she hears my joke, I am not hated by all world, I have president that uses proper words in his sentences and has IQ high enough to eat donuts without help, I can watch ancient statues without worry that histerical woman that works in barber shop will scream that it's terrible and immoral, and I can go on for very long time you know?
Oh, yeah, and I can live in my country and love it and still know there is plenty of great countries around and I don't need to think my country is God given, especially if I don't have single reason for it.
by the way, because point can be missed easily - this is not thrashing USA. This is thrashing of opinion "we are so nice and great, rest of world sucks and is just jealous".
swolf wrote:The Christian faith has stood as a barrier against barbarism, both internal and external, for how many centuries now, and I still read these idiotic claims that we need to get rid of it
Christianity has been the *CAUSE* of barbarism for centuries and continues to be today. It has been the impetus for slavery, racism, hatred and warfare for it's entire existence. It has fought every human advance, both scientifically and socially. It is illogical and irrational and demonstrably false.
So why is it idiotic to get rid of this monster again?
zgreatarteest wrote:Yes, I think it is safe to say that people can be all
screwed up and backwards and still be extremely
successful at it.
Of course, you're a living example of it.
Phoenix writes:
Quote:Faith and logic is a contradiction in terms.
I think that is true only if the terms are very narrowly defined. I refuse to accept Christian doctrine that is illogical; therefore my faith is implicitly logical.
I would recommend C.S. Lewis's little book "Mere Christianity" for those who would like a short course in logical faith.
Cephus wrote:zgreatarteest wrote:Yes, I think it is safe to say that people can be all
screwed up and backwards and still be extremely
successful at it.
Of course, you're a living example of it.
Yes, because I took some good advice.
"But Jesus said to him, Follow Me, and leave
the dead [in sin] to bury their own dead."
(Matthew 8:22 - AMP)
Cephus wrote:swolf wrote:The Christian faith has stood as a barrier against barbarism, both internal and external, for how many centuries now, and I still read these idiotic claims that we need to get rid of it
Christianity has been the *CAUSE* of barbarism for centuries and continues to be today. It has been the impetus for slavery, racism, hatred and warfare for it's entire existence. It has fought every human advance, both scientifically and socially. It is illogical and irrational and demonstrably false.
So why is it idiotic to get rid of this monster again?
Other than for serfdom, there was no slavery in Christian Europe in the middle ages, and the best way to think about serfdom is to compare the 15% tax rate on serfs with what you pay in taxes now.
The European trade in African slaves began in the mid 1400s when Europeans started sailing around Africa to get to India and buy spices and the reason they had to do that was that a muslim religious fanatic, Tamerlane, had broken up the trade routes which Chengis Khan and his immediate descendants had reconstructed for the first time since Rome. The European ships no doubt would put in for food and water at west African ports and the Africans no doubt assumed they were just more muslims and offered to sell them slaves.
In fact Christians in America and England put an end to the slave trade in the early 1800s and the British navy put a final stop to it, but the slave trade still goes on in many muslim countries this very day. Investigating the slave trade isn't difficult. Just disguise yourself as a negro and book a ticket out to Sudan, and tell people you're a Christian when you get there.
As for racism, Christianity has never worked as a basis for it; for that you need evolutionism or some sort of a doctrine like naziism based on evolution.
Thank you for that, swolf, and kudos.
MyOwnUsername wrote:
as I already said I would always choose USA over Iraq as place of living, but would also choose every single european country over USA.
This way I don't need Dr.Phil to tell me that I should talk with my partner if I think we have problems, I can tell all kinds of jokes on all possible places and not only that I will not end up on court but no one will cry when he or she hears my joke, I am not hated by all world, I have president that uses proper words in his sentences and has IQ high enough to eat donuts without help, I can watch ancient statues without worry that histerical woman that works in barber shop will scream that it's terrible and immoral, and I can go on for very long time you know?
We still have freedoms in America which most Europeans do not have. In many if not most European countries, for instance, ordinary people cannot own firearms.
Moreover, and a Croatian should appreciate this, in most parts of the United States, you COULD build a statue of Adolf Hitler in your front yard if you wanted to. You might get your butt kicked in on a daily basis for it, but it wouldn't be illegal. In most European countries I suspect it would be illegal.
Other than that, it appears fairly obvious that several of your "high IQ" european presidents, including Jake Shellac, were taking money directly from Saddam Hussein; I'd rather have somebody honest enough not to do that.
you see - this is exactly what I am talking about - you have no idea about some things.
First of all, I am absolutely sure that this is NOT thing ANYONE should be proud of - but in Croatia ordinary people can own firearms (and that has nothing to do with war ten years ago, it was same before). And in many other countries as far as I know.
And once again, I think that there is much much bigger freedom in fact that our kids are allowed to play videogames without constant bitching of 11,000 "moral" associations and groups (sorry for moderators if I am not allowed to use this word) that they will become criminals, they can watch almost all movies except porn and really extreme extreme violence, they can see ancient roman statues without moral ladies screaming, they can,a after all, go outside and have fun before 21 (although they are not allowed to drink alcohol before 18), they can tell jokes about anyone (and believe me - in country where you can tell a joke about anything and anyone there is not much racism, chauvinism and other isms), and, after all, in every single european city, both youth and adult can walk on streets late at night much much much more free then in USA - after all, they can see a tit in SuperBowl without all country turning itself upside down - and I think it's nicer and bigger freedom then having guns or having a right to build a statue of Adolf Hitler.
I don't know why should I as a Croat especially appreciate that, except if that's reference on croatian nazi-puppet government on WW2 which is too long story to explane now, especially to someone with serious lack of knowledge about Europe (it's not insult, I don't know anything about cars for example). So I can just shortly say: almost all leaders of partisan guerilla and anti-nazi troops in Balkans were Croats, and I especially don't expect you to understand why many govt. of small nations like some Balkan and Baltic states tried to gain independence THEY NEVER HAD in every possible way, especially after seeing what happened to those that believed in "democratic West" such as England and France, that gave away Czech Republic, Slovakia and Austria to Hitler without a blink. It's a rough world out there, you know? Just like Bosnians would surely accept help from anyone in 90's when at this moment big fighters for freedom and peace were not so interested like they were when Iraq attacked Kuwait.
And one another nice example - except in Serbia (this exact example is not possible even there, but they have some serious problems with media censorship), and possibly Albania, I sincerely doubt anywhere in Europe is possible that big company like Disney refuses to distribute film like they did with Michael Moore's latest.
As for "our" european presidents I don't see difference between taking money from Saddam and from same or maybe even worse dictators like Saudi's.
MyOwn, I will be in Vukovar, Croatia, on Setember 8. I'll be a a boat, M/S River Aria, and we're spending one day in Vukovar after we pass customs. c.i.
well, you'll have a lot to see - Vukovar was completely destroyed during Independence war...also, on a lighter side, you have to check vineyards in Ilok, very near to Vukovar - I think it's actually in the program of touristic visits.
Karlovac is kinda far away - but maybe I'll try to come (actually Karlovac is pretty close for american matters I guess, but as Europeans are spoiled in that matter...200 miles? Geee...that's another planet
)
