Why is it so important to refute Christianity?

z's quote, "Well, if "our politics" includes the two agendas you mentioned you can believe any Christian, president or not, or sane person, Christian or not, is not going to just sit around and open up to such atrocities being pushed on them."
Call me silly, but your statement doesn't make any sense. Wink

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cicerone imposter wrote:

z's quote, "Well, if "our politics" includes the two agendas you mentioned you can believe any Christian, president or not, or sane person, Christian or not, is not going to just sit around and open up to such atrocities being pushed on them."
Call me silly, but your statement doesn't make any sense.

OK, you're silly. Maybe somebody will help you make some sense
of it.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

z's quote, "Well, if "our politics" includes the two agendas you mentioned you can believe any Christian, president or not, or sane person, Christian or not, is not going to just sit around and open up to such atrocities being pushed on them."
Call me silly, but your statement doesn't make any sense.

OK, you're silly. Maybe somebody will help you make some sense
of it.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

I haven't seen nor head of any atheist knocking on doors to "convert" a person of religion to an atheist. I also don't see that ever happening. So, what's the beef? We're trying to point out that this president is hell-bent on using his religion to impose his beliefs into our politics. This president is trying to push his beliefs on homosexual marriage and stem cell research on all of the citizens of this country. Where do you supposed it comes from? I can tell you it's not non-religious learning.

This is CI's post he needs some help understanding my post refering to
it . Hint: "our politics" at the end of the forth sentence are the key words
I think he my be having trouble relating to. I don't know.

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Foxfyre,

I join conversations like these to proselytize, just like most people. Smile

I am very nervous that some person somewhere, sometime, could gain sufficient following to hurt somebody, or some planet. Probably ours, and perhaps us.

Persons who cannot seem to realize that they are prone to confusing wishes, imagination, and theories with actual facts are very subject to the demagogue who can exort them to perform awfully nasty acts. Sad

I don't think that it is necessary to provide examples of times when a demagogue was able to control (bring to his way of thinking) a whole population. Sad

I don't think that it is only religion that plays fast and loose with facts.
Politics, physics and economics also have a certain class of people that are prone to confuse theories with facts. Most of the time it's rather harmless but when this confusion spills over to public policy it can be disasterous for the peoples involved. I don't expect that we need examples there either.

So in the interests of making the world a better place for everybody I do this. Also I get to talk to some nice people Exclamation

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Zegret--- Referring to your post of May 3, 8:50 PM

1)May I point out that a "spiritual man" has never been shown to exist. Those who claimed to be "spiritual" have all too often been shown to have the full complement of human failings.

2) re. John third, paraphrasing. If you forget all you knew then you can be admitted to heaven.
a) No doubt about it. Only dead people can get to Heaven. Like a baby, a dead person knows nothing.

b)Heaven, and Paradise have never been shown to exist outside imagination. Personally they sound like very dull places to me.

c)Heaven is only for Christians. This IMO would be an indication of a very cruel and selfish God. The facts, even when seen through Christain theology, belie the dogma that God is generous and loving.

d) Your Gods generosity reminds me somewhat of the Nazi who pulled the teeth from dead Jews to buy treats for his children with the gold. Sometimes they were not even dead. Germany at the time was a Christian Nation.

e)That a God, the "Our father who art in heaven one", would deny paradise to those of his children who just happened to live and die in a locality more than about a hundred miles from Jerusalem does not seem like a God that I would even care to imagine. Humanity is perfectly able to produce "real" despots.

f) Aren't you glad that "He Lives" only in mens minds. He causes enough trouble there Crying or Very sad

IMO the more minds that are freed from wishful superstitions and despotic ambitions the better off humanity would be.

There are none so blind as those who will not even look about them. Looking about will produce knowledge, and knowledge alone can set you free. Faith will result in contented slaves. ( A fact well noted by the Southern US slave holders who were quite careful to look after the spiritual well being of their slaves. (Documented in the book entitled "I was born a slave" with several authors)

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akaMechsmith wrote:

Zegret--- Referring to your post of May 3, 8:50 PM

1)May I point out that a "spiritual man" has never been shown to exist. Those who claimed to be "spiritual" have all too often been shown to have the full complement of human failings.

2) re. John third, paraphrasing. If you forget all you knew then you can be admitted to heaven.
a) No doubt about it. Only dead people can get to Heaven. Like a baby, a dead person knows nothing.

b)Heaven, and Paradise have never been shown to exist outside imagination. Personally they sound like very dull places to me.

c)Heaven is only for Christians. This IMO would be an indication of a very cruel and selfish God. The facts, even when seen through Christain theology, belie the dogma that God is generous and loving.

d) Your Gods generosity reminds me somewhat of the Nazi who pulled the teeth from dead Jews to buy treats for his children with the gold. Sometimes they were not even dead. Germany at the time was a Christian Nation.

e)That a God, the "Our father who art in heaven one", would deny paradise to those of his children who just happened to live and die in a locality more than about a hundred miles from Jerusalem does not seem like a God that I would even care to imagine. Humanity is perfectly able to produce "real" despots.

f) Aren't you glad that "He Lives" only in mens minds. He causes enough trouble there IMO the more minds that are freed from wishful superstitions and despotic ambitions the better off humanity would be.

There are none so blind as those who will not even look about them. Looking about will produce knowledge, and knowledge alone can set you free. Faith will result in contented slaves. ( A fact well noted by the Southern US slave holders who were quite careful to look after the spiritual well being of their slaves. (Documented in the book entitled "I was born a slave" with several authors)

1. This statement boggles my mind. Nonspiritual people
cannot see spiritual things even in the natural unless they
look. I know people who have seen things that should have
proved the spiritual rehelm to them, but it didn't. They always
explained it away. To themselves. I can't even comprehend
how you could say the spiritual man has never been proven to
exist. We all have failings, spiritual or not.

2. How you came to this interpertatiion is beyond me. "Forget all
you know and you can be admitted into heaven." No way it says
that or means that.
a) You are physically dead, but spiritually alive. You will be
seperated from God or with him. Babies know more than you think.
A dead person will know everything. He will know as he is fully
known.
b) Of coarse it has never been seen in the natural or proved
scientifically. It would take no faith. Without faith you cannot
please God. A man who walks with God needs no proof.
c}God gives everybody a choice. He says I set before you life
and death (spiritual) choose life. A multiple choice with the answer
given. A real no brainer. If you don't let Jesus clean you
up, you don't get into heaven. God is not going to let the place
get contanimated. I'm sure it would sound dull to you.
d) You are blaming the wrong god. God is loving and kind. He is
still giving you a chance to make a choice even though you refuse
to believe. The Mulsem god Allah would have had your head by
now.
e) This statement makes no sense. I have no idea what you are
talking about and really don't care. I will tell you that God will judge
all fairly and He wishes no one to perish and have to be seperated
from His love.
f) You are intitled to your opinion. If you are snared, it will be by
the words of your own mouth. It gives me no satisfaction to see you
go the way you are headed. I've done all I can do for you.

Looking about did not produce any knowlege of God to you. So
you are without excuse. You are always talking about looking around
and I keep showing you this verse and you keep ignoring it. As I said
in an earlier post, I won't keep beating on a bell that refuses to ring.
I thought you might, at least, finally give a hollow ping. There are to
many hurting people that are ready for a saviour to waste any more
time. I am ready to move on to fertile ground. It has been a pleasure although dissapointing. I wish you the best regardless.

Romans 1:20 (Amplifed Bible)
For ever since the creation of the world His invisible
nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and
divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly
discernible in and through the things that have been
made (His handiworks). So [men] (who refuse to believe)
are without excuse [altogether without any defense or
justification] (for not believing).

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akaMechsmith writes:

Quote:

So in the interests of making the world a better place for everybody I do this. Also I get to talk to some nice people

LOL okay. I suppose I do too. I learned a long time ago that telling people they are wrong rarely does anything more than stiffen their resolve to resist my point of view at best and evokes their animosity at worst. It's hard not to do that though and I don't always resist the impulse. And its hard not to bristle a bit when somebody says something insulting about my point of view.

Sometimes I think the most value in debating and/or discussing these issues is that the exercise causes us to focus on how best to defend our point of view, and in figuring out how to do that, we often learn something.

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zgreatarteest wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
Well I saw nothing in Mechsmith's well reasoned and thoughtful post to suggest any comparison with Hitler.

Me either. I thought maybe "It was just me".

I know yall didn't - I'm fairly certain no one else did either.
But hey, that's just me.

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Foxfyre wrote:

akaMechsmith writes:

Quote:
So in the interests of making the world a better place for everybody I do this. Also I get to talk to some nice people

LOL okay. I suppose I do too. I learned a long time ago that telling people they are wrong rarely does anything more than stiffen their resolve to resist my point of view at best and evokes their animosity at worst. It's hard not to do that though and I don't always resist the impulse. And its hard not to bristle a bit when somebody says something insulting about my point of view.

Sometimes I think the most value in debating and/or discussing these issues is that the exercise causes us to focus on how best to defend our point of view, and in figuring out how to do that, we often learn something.

LOL You are absolutely right. It is a form of study for me. It helps
me keep my pencil sharp. It keeps me in His word and I always
learn more and more every time I use His Word. It is a living thing
and keeps revealing and speaking to us. You never really learn
anything until you try to teach someone else. They may not learn
a thing, but you do. God will see to it. I would like to be more laid
back like you and Husker, etc., but I am constantly reminded how
short time is. This is no time in God's timing to be playing around
in the harvest fields. This compels me to come on strong sometimes
and go on and find out how hard the rock is. I don't play pattie cake
to well when lives are at stake. I have to remember what is said
to the Church in Laodicea in Revelation 3:14-16 about them not
being hot or cold , but lukewarm and getting spit out of His mouth.
As chiso says, "But hey, that's just me." At least God has a sense
of humor or He wouldn't put up with me. But hey, me and God are
in love. Agape love. The unconditional God kind of Love. Don't we wish
everybody knew what we know and feel from God. They can can't
they? You know it. I never give up on anybody, but I do have to
try to remember when to back and let God do His job. I'll get better
at it. I'm still a work in progress.

Peace Brother,

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zgreatarteest wrote:

I'll plead nolo contendra to your rebuttal, but I still stand by the general principals of what I said to be self evident
whether the specifics of the case be questionable or not.

It may be self evident to you, but fortunately we are not dealing with ancient texts for this question. Lot's of original documentation for the founding of our country and original witings of our founders in their own hands. No after the fact muddling by scribes to promote their own agenda with our national documents, however there are some dishonest fundamentalists like David Barton that promote phony quotations.

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mesquite wrote:

zgreatarteest wrote:
I'll plead nolo contendra to your rebuttal, but I still stand by the general principals of what I said to be self evident
whether the specifics of the case be questionable or not.

It may be self evident to you, but fortunately we are not dealing with ancient texts for this question. Lot's of original documentation for the founding of our country and original witings of our founders in their own hands. No after the fact muddling by scribes to promote their own agenda with our national documents, however there are some dishonest fundamentalists like David Barton that promote phony quotations.

positiveatheism.org Now that's an OXYMORON if there ever was one!

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zgreatarteest wrote:

positiveatheism.org Now that's an OXYMORON if there ever was one!

Psst! I think your Christianity is showing. Do you have anything to say about the info in the link? It is a good site which I often refer to.

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mesquite wrote:

zgreatarteest wrote:
positiveatheism.org Now that's an OXYMORON if there ever was one!

Psst! I think your Christianity is showing. Do you have anything to say about the info in the link? It is a good site which I often refer to.

Forgive me. That was my flesh showing
through my Christianity. Just proves
I'm not a perfect example. My mind is bad
about getting ahead of my spirit. Keeping
a guard over my mouth is one of my biggest
weaknesses. I may have to hire a blacksmith
to make me a bit for my mouth so I can keep
a reign on it . I apologize. That was a
tacky remark.

As for the info on the link, I'll have to get
back to you after I have a chance to check it
out. I will make sure I have control over
my mouth when I do.

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zgreatarteest,

You said:

Quote:

The Mulsem god Allah would have had your head by now.

Your POV here is one of the big reasons I've got issues with your belief - it's exclusive.

I believe that if there ever was a god who was "loving and kind" he/she/it would be inclusive and love everyone regardless of their belief. That god would care about intent rather than belief and would let people who were "good people" into its heaven regardless of whether or not they believed.

Exclusivity and divisiveness is not okay - saying we're the chosen ones isn't okay - and believing that your god is better than someone else's god is not okay.

While I firmly support everyone's right to believe in what they want - I don't like it when they offer help to the suffering with the caveat that they change their beliefs in order to receive help.

I trust my senses and what my mind creates from those senses - and I find it to be more likely that people lied than "miracles" having occurred.

I wish you the best and hope that you can help "many hurting people" without trying to convert them.

Your statement below tells me everything I need to know - you're a salesman - with an eye to profit after death.

Quote:

There are to many hurting people that are ready for a saviour to waste any more time. I am ready to move on to fertile ground.

You intent here is about YOU as is shown by your statement that you are ready to "move on to more fertile ground." If it was about the hurting people you would have worded it differently.

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Jer.
Suggested reading: The Greatest Salesman In The World
by Og Mandino

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zee-grate wrote:

You are always talking about looking around and I keep showing you this verse and you keep ignoring it.

That's not looking around -- that's looking inward to one book that you have internalized.

I do like your handle, though. Just keep the circular argument spinning, brother.

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Zegreatarteest,

"This statement boggles my mind"!

1) I thought it probably would. Smile

And if it really shook it hard enough to make it think then you are on the path to true knowledge. Exclamation

When Adam and Eve started on the path of enlightenment (ate of the fruit of knowledge) They were nothing but slaves. God had imprisoned them in the Garden just as surely as any Arab or English slave trader imprisoned those whom he felt were his inferiors. When the "fruit" was eaten they( the three of them) became aware that they could no longer remain slaves so they left or were expelled from the Garden.

This IMO is merely an allegorical story illustrating the fact that "The truth will set you free" . The facts of the story are simply that when the pair gained intelligence it was no longer possible to keep them enslaved.

The Southern slave holders knew this and went to some trouble to keep their slaves ignorant.

The Kremlin knew this, the result was the Iron Curtain,

The Religious hierarchy knows this and goes to a lot of trouble to keep their parishioners ignorant.

I am sorry but you do not even realize that you are in thrall to some Popes,Pastors, or Priests ambitions. Truly sorry Crying or Very sad

To the second part of your kind post I answer---

John 3-3 (New world translation of The Holy Scriptures)

1) In answer Jesus said to him "Unless anyone is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God"

1a)) A paraphrase--- Unless you loose all your intellect and become as a baby (innocent and ignorant) you cannot enter Heaven.
What coul be more clear than that, factually Question

2) Death is a fact
2a) For some it means an entrance (rebirth) into the Kingdom (slavery) of God.

2b) Its merely an observation that you will live on Earth with all it's troubles and pains until you die.
2b1) That's the fact of the matter. And it's all that can be shown by that story!

To the rest of your comments----Better hunting next time Smile

I also note that in another post you admit to the existence of Allah. Be careful, you could burn for that. Christians have put people to the stake for far less. Confused

Think about it Idea

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Zeegreet,

Re the note (e) that you did't understand.

I was merely remarking that any person who happened to be born and live in a part of the world that Jesus's preaching hadn't gotten to yet would be condemned to die with no hope of Paradise.

I have the opinion that any "Father" who treated his children in such a callus fashion is not deserving of our respect.

A couple more comments on the reasons that the Bible can be easily interpreted in so many ways.

I suspect that the priests who decided what stories were worthy of being included in the Bible didn't do the writing. In those days they would have hired scribes or monks to do the scutt work. This would include language conversions.

In My Opinion (I'm no scholar, just a naive realist) the scribes who of necessity were much more familiar with the ancient writings than were the priests. They had to copy it after all. The scribes managed often to sneak in their opinion that this guy is full of schidt. ("no man is a hero to his valet" which is someone elses observation which I think is probably true) Very Happy

The John 3-3-3 IMO is an especially good example of a passage that can say different things to different people.

The Garden Story is another, as is the parting of the Sea in Exodus, and The story of the loaves and fishes.

Read them with an educated, critical mind if you will. They are still darned good literature, approached only by Issac Asimov and Chas. Dickens in modern times. I have read it about three times for the fun of it. I have also treated Asimov and Dickens similarly, amongst others Exclamation

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Mech,
Thank you very much for your suggestions, but
I will remain in the enjoyment of being a slave,
or even a fool, for Christ. I had rather not fall
into the discription below.

2 Peter 2 (Amplified Bible)
21 For never to have obtained a [full personal]
knowledge of the way of righteousness would
have been better for them than, having obtained
[such knowledge], to turn back from the holy
commandment which was [verbally] delivered to
them.
22 There has befallen them the thing spoken of in
the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own
vomit, and, The sow is washed only to wallow again
in the mire.

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Why is it so important to refute Christianity?

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