Why is it so important to refute Christianity?

Mesquite writes:

Quote:

I think we may have been down this path before, but I find it difficult to understand how once one decides to see some biblical stories as merely allegories others can be accepted as divine truth.

I rather think that most Christians don't give it a whole lot of thought one way or the other. It is just accepted because that is what they were.

I do not presume to speak for all Christians for many would disagree with me on many points. But here is my take on it:

These are subjects that are fascinating to Bible historians and there are some who have devoted a lifetime to studying the text against the background of other history and scientific evidence. Zgreat is right on target in his assertion that too often theologians make it much more complicated than it has to be. At the same time, I do not believe a Christian must turn off his/her intellect or reasoning powers to accept the truths of the Bible.

The Bible is the story of a people of faith but it was written in bits and pieces spanning many hundreds of years since writing was invented by the Phoenicians and adapted by the ancient Hebrews. Copies of various manuscripts were carried about, left at shrines, etc. The manuscripts included historical accounts, poetry, scholarly sayings, and allegory including stories to teach various principles.

From time to time the manuscripts were gathered up and knit together into new documents. As many of the manuscripts would be hundreds of years old when the editing process happened, many parallel (duplicate) passages were included and the scribes who did the work weren't too particular about getting things into the right order. They knew all the stuff by heart and had no clue their work would be read by people more than 2000 years later; therefore they didn't bother to explain many things and they didn't footnote. Translating the ancient Hebrew into modern languages was also a daunting task--no capitalization, punctuation, vowels, or separation between words--and errors have been made from time to time.

When ancient manuscripts can be supported by geological, biological, archeological, and historical evidence, it is safe to accept that the story has basis in actual history. When they cannot, it is probably safe to accept the story as allegory as both the ancient and first century Hebrews were fond of story telling and fond of parables as teaching tools. And though I am of the history plus allegory school, I have no problem with those who believe it all happened exactly as written. In the long run, it makes absolutely no difference. Whether history or allegory, it is no less true.

(The New Testament being written in mostly Greek was much more easily translated into other modern languages, but it was created in much the same way as the Old Testament with the same problems inherent in the editing process.)

Quote:

What do you mean by all Christians have experienced God? Are you speaking of the born again variety? That just seems to be a rather bold statement. I have seen a few here make that claim of themselves, but I do not think even a majority of the Christian posters here have said such.

I think some Christians hold to a simpler faith that is satisfying for them, and some think God reveals himself in many different ways and cannot be confined in a box of specific beliefs or be limited by what humankind thinks of Him. There is no universal agreement about what Christians must believe or how Christians must behave as testified by the many hundreds (thousands?) of Christian denominations.

But the one thing all Christians have in common is that they have received God in the form of the Christ and have been changed. The change may not be externally noticable and it definitely does not automatically turn a person into a saint, but the Christian has the certainty of a personal relationship with God and a certainty of God's presence that was not possible before. That is all part of being 'born again'.

Now this all is from the gospel according to Foxfyre, and other Christians answering the same questions would likely answer somewhat or much differently.

0 Replies

Quote:

Zgreat is right on target in his assertion that too often theologians make it much more complicated than it has to be.

very true

0 Replies

Foxftre,

I have to commend you on the way you put
together your last post. I would not want to
change a thing. The Bible has stood the test
of time. That should be proof enough of its
validity to anybody. Some translation errors,
etc. do exist and we are getting revelation
of these daily as they are revealed. It is said,
in the Bible, that God has hidden things there
for us. Not from us.

There was no passive tense in Hebrew, That
brought a lot of insite to me when I found
that out. Where it says "God caused", in a lot of
places, the translation should have been "God
allowed", is a for instance. I still find it amusing
that the translators of the King James Version
just couldn't believe what was said in Psalm 8:5.
The Hebrew actually says that God created man
a little lower than Himself. The translators in
their humility just couldn't bring themselves to
believe that could be right. They changed it to
to read that God had created man a little lower
than the angles. Now that's humility!

Thanks again for that great post.

Z

0 Replies

zgreatarteest wrote:

patiodog wrote:
Ah, c'mon, God still kills more than any of 'em.

I think you got your gods mixed up. You should
have spelled that with a little "g". The God of
the Bible doesn't have any death in Him, only life.
How would He do what you claim?

John 10:10 (Amplifed Bible)
The thief (satan) comes in order to steal and
kill and destroy. I (Jesus) came that they may
have and enjoy life, and have it in abundance
(to the full, till it overflows)

Two options: (A) it's a joke -- God made life, and death is a part of life, hence God made death; (B) it's a none-too-subtle reference to all of the smiting done by the old patriarch's. When I typed it, I was thinking A. Today, I'm thinking B.

0 Replies

Did sex organs develop after Eve was created?

0 Replies

cicerone imposter wrote:

Did sex organs develop after Eve was created?

Yes.

0 Replies

cicerone imposter wrote:

Did sex organs develop after Eve was created?

Do they make music?

0 Replies

oops couldn't help myself - apologies

0 Replies

husker wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
Did sex organs develop after Eve was created?

Do they make music?

Makes my heart sing. Ooops, just
couldn't help myself either.

0 Replies

husker wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
Did sex organs develop after Eve was created?

Do they make music?

Makes my heart sing. Ooops, just
couldn't help myself either.

0 Replies

Husker, I think that should tell us it is
time to go back to work.

0 Replies

Chiso, I am sorry but this is just too good Smile

As a generalized statement -- We agree, Athiests are not totally nuts. We can and do observe.

But your second quote--
a) Cain slew Abel. Why (not a good question) Because of a percieved inadequecy of gifts (sacrifices) to God.
b) God told the Jews to kill all the adult Canaanites and give the girls to the soldiers.
b-1) God apparently approves of both genocide and adultery.
b1a)Either God, or Moses, or Joshua had their signals crossed!

God Killed Lots wife for disobeying a command that would be impossible for any human to obey. Thats only my opinion, I don't know of any one that could not look back (or remember). ( the parable probably is an admonition not to dwell on past misteaks)

c) The Church of St. Peter waged war that was largely over a dispute over who was Gods representative on Earth. (Papal Wars) This was despite the "fact" that the Pope is Gods annointed one.

d) The Salem witch trials where "good" Christians killed a couple of hundred girls as "disciples of Satan", another imaginary figure.

e) Hitler, The Christians God gave the Germanics superiority over the "Christ killers".

f) The difficulties in Ireland between the Catholic God and the Anglican God.

I will admit that Christians and Diests have not been the cause of all mankinds troubles but there have been enough to show that the Christian "God" loves war and human suffering.

Frankly,(IMO) it's a good thing that Jehovah God, Allah, The Great Spirit, and the One whose name cannot be said are all imaginary. Humanity or intelligence probably could not exist in a Universe that had a real "God" in it Exclamation

Whatever its name.

Since the Christian God or the Abrahamic One obviously approves of war, genocide, adultery, ignorance, incest,bearing false witness ( when the town was circumsised and then slaughtered) the inferiority of women,(unclean) mutilation ( circumcision), can it be any wonder that "civilized" people must refute Christianity.

Since the Christian God often lies, and is caught, is it any wonder that we Athiests often tend to regard Christians as a bit "prone to prevarication". Since they are also apt to confuse wishes with facts it does make one a bit leary of trusting one in any case.

I make that previous observation because there are certain inconsistancies between what God says, and what He does.

"Thou shall not kill"--Kill all the Palestinians oops Canaanites Embarrassed

"Cleave to one another" . You may have several wives.
I must kill my son so humans get to heaven.

And so on ad nauseum. Christians, PLEASE look at the Universe around you. Its marvelous, beautiful, wonderful, challenging,and interesting.
Please don't screw it up due to an inability to to differentiate between observations and imaginations. You may think you are going to heaven but We've got no place to go Sad

.

0 Replies

That no place to go is too scary for christians. They must believe.

0 Replies

akaMechsmith wrote:

Chiso, I am sorry but this is just too good

As a generalized statement -- We agree, Athiests are not totally nuts. We can and do observe.

But your second quote--
a) Cain slew Abel. Why (not a good question) Because of a percieved inadequecy of gifts (sacrifices) to God.
b) God told the Jews to kill all the adult Canaanites and give the girls to the soldiers.
b-1) God apparently approves of both genocide and adultery.
b1a)Either God, or Moses, or Joshua had their signals crossed!

God Killed Lots wife for disobeying a command that would be impossible for any human to obey. Thats only my opinion, I don't know of any one that could not look back (or remember). ( the parable probably is an admonition not to dwell on past misteaks)

c) The Church of St. Peter waged war that was largely over a dispute over who was Gods representative on Earth. (Papal Wars) This was despite the "fact" that the Pope is Gods annointed one.

d) The Salem witch trials where "good" Christians killed a couple of hundred girls as "disciples of Satan", another imaginary figure.

e) Hitler, The Christians God gave the Germanics superiority over the "Christ killers".

f) The difficulties in Ireland between the Catholic God and the Anglican God.

I will admit that Christians and Diests have not been the cause of all mankinds troubles but there have been enough to show that the Christian "God" loves war and human suffering.

Frankly,(IMO) it's a good thing that Jehovah God, Allah, The Great Spirit, and the One whose name cannot be said are all imaginary. Humanity or intelligence probably could not exist in a Universe that had a real "God" in it Whatever its name.

Since the Christian God or the Abrahamic One obviously approves of war, genocide, adultery, ignorance, incest,bearing false witness ( when the town was circumsised and then slaughtered) the inferiority of women,(unclean) mutilation ( circumcision), can it be any wonder that "civilized" people must refute Christianity.

Since the Christian God often lies, and is caught, is it any wonder that we Athiests often tend to regard Christians as a bit "prone to prevarication". Since they are also apt to confuse wishes with facts it does make one a bit leary of trusting one in any case.

I make that previous observation because there are certain inconsistancies between what God says, and what He does.

"Thou shall not kill"--Kill all the Palestinians oops Canaanites "Cleave to one another" . You may have several wives.
I must kill my son so humans get to heaven.

And so on ad nauseum. Christians, PLEASE look at the Universe around you. Its marvelous, beautiful, wonderful, challenging,and interesting.
Please don't screw it up due to an inability to to differentiate between observations and imaginations. You may think you are going to heaven but We've got no place to go .

You sure have a lot of Bibical information and somewhat
related subjects. Now, if you had some knowledge about
that information, mixed with some insite and wisdom, you'd
really be something. Far be it for me to try to show you
how far off in a deep ditch you are about what you said.
Here is why I won't try.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (Amplified Bible)
But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or
welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings
and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly
(meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of
knowing them [of progressively recognizing, them]
because they are spiritually discerned and estimated
and appreciated.

I might as well add this, while I'm at it.

1 Corinthians 3:18 (Amplified Bible)
Let no person decieve himself. If anyone among you
supposes that he is wise in this age, let him become
a fool [let him discard his worldly discernment and
recognize himself as dull, stupid and foolish, without
true learning and scholarship], that he may become
[really] wise.

0 Replies

Well, akaMech, Looks like you got a whole lot of babble instead of any direct response to your post.

0 Replies

Zegreat,
Please read your last post carefully Exclamation

The natural man--( Is there any other kind?)

Does not accept the teachings of Spirit (s) ( He is incapable of recognizing another persons imaginings)

Let no one deceive himself- (Do not allow yourself to be deceived either)
Idea

Darned good advice Exclamation

But to suppose that Mankind is wise-- (We just have to observe the Gods that Mankind has imagined)

But when Mankind discards his Gods-- (perhaps true learning will be possible)

I do not consider myself wise. However I am fairly well convinced that replacing superstitions with facts may be helpful in becoming wise. I am also fairly well convinced that no particular set of superstitions, whether that of a priest, a physicist, or a politician, has an absolute claim on the truth. Therefore we must deal with facts as well as we can discern them.

Gods, in general, are not too fond of facts. It would probably be best to discard them. When the Japanese Emperor was forced to admit that he was not God (the only one around there at the time)the Japanese did a lot better.

0 Replies

CI,
I have noticed that the Bible particularily is written in such a way as it can be interpreted in any fashion that seems appropriate for the audience. Did you like my interpretation of Corinthians Question

The Jewish elders that had a lot to do with approving the Old Testament were not stupid, shortsighted men. They recognised the fact that if their society was to survive they needed a set of laws that could be interpreted in whatever way seemed appropriate to whoever was running things at the time. This would serve to define Jewry for all time. They did a bang up job. The facts of any matter could be defined later, by whoever needed to apply to the Torah for backup.

This is reflected today by the common observation that "the law is the last refuge of scoundrels". Sad

Personally I suspect that the Elders knew darned well that no God ever existed but they needed one so they invented Him. The persons that run a large organization are first and foremost politicians and no politician ever let facts stand in the way of his greater objectives, whether they be ill or good. In the case of the governors of Jewry the means (inventing God) necessary was justified by the end (survival for posterity) because the Babylonians had several. That's a historical view of the "Arms Race" Smile

.

The sooner Christians realize that the Bible is first and foremost a political document the better it will be for everybody. IMO natch.

0 Replies

akaMechsmith wrote:

Zegreat,
Please read your last post carefully

The natural man--( Is there any other kind?)

Yes, the born again spiritual man. You are
dealing with gods. The imaginary kind. I
am talking about The Living God that a
person can prove to himself to be real if
he will let God reveal Himself in ones life.
A man has a choice to allow that. Try it.
You can always come back to where you
are now. The Gospel of John chapter 3
explains how.

That's the best I can do for you. I will
crawl off in a ditch with a person as long as
I can see where they are. You, my friend,
are plumb out of sight. You are the one that
needs to read 1 Corinthians 2:14 again,
because it obviously went right over your
head. By what you said, you totally missed
what it said as it has absolutely nothing to
with recognizing someone elses imagings.
1 Corinthians 3:18 explains why it went
over your head.

You think the God of the Bible was invented
by man. Your interpertation of 1 Corinthians
3:18 is just that. Your interpertation. Man has
no excuse not to see the God of the Bible. You
actually had to be taught not to believe.
You were well taught.

Romans 1:20 (Amplified Bible)
For ever since the creation of the world His invisible
nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and
divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly
discernable in and through the things that have been
made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse
[altogether without any defense or justification],

0 Replies

I've known for a long time that god was the creation of man, but I will not put myself in the bush league as those wise men that wrote the Torah. They understood psychology and human motivation when few understood marketing. Their ability to write prose in such a way that it can be interpreted in so many ways in the future is beyond genius. But I understand what you mean by "politicians." That part of human institutions will never progress beyond what was available more than 2000 years ago. We may even be going in reverse in this great land of ours.

0 Replies

akaMechsmith wrote:

Hitler, The Christians God gave the Germanics superiority over the "Christ killers".

0 Replies

Why is it so important to refute Christianity?

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know