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Do we really have to take military action to Syria?

 
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Sep, 2013 06:02 am
@Moment-in-Time,
Quote:
(John McCain and his sidekick, Lindsay Graham, both said Obama is upgrading the Rebels weapons, which is a good thing.)


er... no, it isn't

Quote:
... the real challenge to the unity of the Syrian opposition lies in Jabhat al-Nusra, to whom thousands of Free Syrian army fighters have apparently defected. Numbering only 5,000 fighters as of January, but now perhaps many more, al-Nusra's core fighters come from Iraq's post-war insurgency and have recently pledged allegiance to Al-Qaeda in Iraq.

Thanks to the supply lines and experience they forged in this period, Al-Nusra are far more organised and better than their counterparts in the Free Syrian Army, a mixture of ex-military and civilian fighters.

The lack of organizational structure both within the Free Syrian Army and between rival groups has allowed human rights abuses, such as the recent confirmation of rebel commander Khaled al-Hamad eating a dead man's heart, as well as many other alleged abuses, to become common and go unpunished.Source


From the WSJ
Quote:
The White House wants to strengthen the opposition but doesn't want it to prevail, according to people who attended closed-door briefings by top administration officials over the past week. The administration doesn't want U.S. airstrikes, for example, tipping the balance of the conflict because it fears Islamists will fill the void if the Assad regime falls, according to briefing participants, which included lawmakers and their aides.

...

Many rebel commanders say the aim of U.S. policy in Syria appears to be a prolonged stalemate that would buy the U.S. and its allies more time to empower moderates and choose whom to support.

"The game is clear to all," said Qassem Saededdine, a spokesman for the U.S.-backed Free Syrian Army's Supreme Military Council. "When it comes to the interests of superpowers…the average Syrian comes last."

Some congressional officials said they were concerned the administration was edging closer to an approach privately advocated by Israel. Israeli officials have told their American counterparts they would be happy to see its enemies Iran, the Lebanese Shiite militia Hezbollah and al Qaeda militants fight until they are weakened, giving moderate rebel forces a chance to play a bigger role in Syria's future.

Gen. Martin Dempsey, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, has been particularly outspoken with lawmakers about his concerns that weakening Mr. Assad too much could tip the scales in favor of al Qaeda-linked fighters.


And, of course, Russian is backing Assad. Did someone say the Cold War was over? Looks like another proxy war to me.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Sep, 2013 06:43 am
Putin and friends have some "plans".

Quote:
Vladimir Putin has warned the US against launching military action in Syria, stating that Russia has "plans" on how it would react if such a scenario unfolded.

The Russian president's comments came as Barack Obama for the first time portrayed his plans for US military action as part of a broader strategy to topple Bashar al-Assad, as the White House's campaign to win over sceptics in Congress gained momentum.

In an interview with Associated Press and Russia's state Channel 1 television, Putin said it was too early to talk about what Russia would do if the US attacked Syria but added: "We have our ideas about what we will do and how we will do it in case the situation develops toward the use of force or otherwise. We have our plans."Guardian
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Sep, 2013 08:29 am
@JPB,
Whilst in the Uk, you must follow party and governmental lines ...
Quote:
Tory MP Jesse Norman sacked from Number 10 for rebelling in Syria vote

Outspoken Conservative MP Jesse Norman has been sacked from his role as a member of the Number 10 policy board after he rebelled against the Government in the vote on military action in Syria.

Downing Street was described as being “sad” to lose Mr Norman, but is keen to make it clear that voting against the party is not without its consequences – particularly for someone appointed by the Prime Minister to help bring the Tories success in the next general election.
[...]
Mr Cameron set up the policy board of advisors in April, and tasked it with coming up with new ideas for the party. Mr Norman was reportedly one of the key members of the team, and The Spectator quoted an unnamed Tory colleague today expressing anger over the decision to get rid of him.

He or she said: “To sack him over a moral issue like whether to support war is outrageous. If he had rebelled on a legislative issue I could understand but instead he acted on principle and reflected the vast majority of the public.”

Meanwhile in Prime Minister’s Questions today, Mr Cameron expressed his “regret” over Ed Miliband’s stance on Syria, and accused the Labour leadership of “dividing” the Commons on its condemnation of the use of chemical weapons. ...

In Germany:
Basic Law (German constitution wrote:
Article 38

(1) Members of the German Bundestag shall be elected in general, direct, free, equal and secret elections. They shall be representatives of the whole people, not bound by orders or instructions, and responsible only to their conscience.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Sep, 2013 08:37 am
@Moment-in-Time,
Quote:
Quote:
The plan is to degrade the **capacity** to deliver sarin gas.


But before the strike the US wants to get in there to see if there are any new dangerous chemical weapons that they can take into their own arsenal.
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Sep, 2013 08:42 am
The unknown nature of the rebels might be why only a limited air strike is planned in response to the chemical attack which occurred on August 21 against civilians, 400 of them children.

The Guardian has some questions and answers I found to be good in exaplaning why it is a safe assumption that the Syrian government was behind the attack. (plus a lot more information)

Quote:
Why is the media assuming that it was Assad who was responsible, when there are reports (here, here & here) of the rebels being caught with sarin?

It is not the media that is assuming that Assad is responsible. The Guardian and other media have reported claims and assessments by the US, UK, France and the Syrian rebels, and of course official Syrian denials. Only western governments have provided any evidence at all, however adequate or convincing it is judged. All three governments also state categorically that the rebels did not have the capacity to mount a CW attack on the scale of what occurred on 21 August. All have stated they are relying on classified sources as well as the precedent of earlier, smaller attacks. More detail is clearly needed to convince sceptics, given the experience of the Iraq WMD dossier.

It has previously been reported that members of the al-Nusra front were caught with sarin nerve gas in Turkey – and this has been echoed by Syrian state media. Dale Gavlak, an independent journalist, has reported a belief that nerve agents used in Ghouta were supplied by Saudi Arabia.

So far, however, neither the Syrian government nor Russia have publicly provided any evidence that the rebels were responsible for the incident. Delay in allowing the UN inspectors access to the scene of the attacks, and heavy shelling before they were able to get there, appeared designed to destroy evidence.


source

JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Sep, 2013 09:04 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
Downing Street was described as being “sad” to lose Mr Norman, but is keen to make it clear that voting against the party is not without its consequences – particularly for someone appointed by the Prime Minister to help bring the Tories success in the next general election.


Any politician who admits to something as patently dishonest as this should be stoned.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Sep, 2013 09:08 am
@revelette,
Quote:
400 of them children.


Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: "We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?"

Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it."

--60 Minutes (5/12/96)
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Sep, 2013 09:41 am
Now that Russia is threatening some sort of retribution for US attack on Syria makes this "limited" strike very interesting.

That's the reason the UN is useless; Russia and China are security members that always vote against US interests.

Now that Russia has drawn a red line, I wonder how China will get involved.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Sep, 2013 10:03 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
That's the reason the UN is useless; Russia and China are security members that always vote against US interests.


Now isn't that telling. The UN is useless because countries vote against US interests.

And folks like CI aren't even remotely aware of how muddled their thinking is due to a lifetime of Uncle Sam's propaganda.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Sep, 2013 10:20 am
@JTT,
western powers base argument "we know Assad did it because we dont think anyone else could have" does not work for me. at all.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Sep, 2013 10:39 am
Our illegal war in Iraq cost the Iraqis over 100,000 deaths of innocent men, women, and children by US and allied war machinery. So Assad kills 1,000 of his own people, and that's a crime?




hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Sep, 2013 10:52 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Our illegal war in Iraq cost the Iraqis over 100,000 deaths of innocent men, women, and children by US and allied war machinery. So Assad kills 1,000 of his own people, and that's a crime?






you dont know assad or people who like him did it...when pressed one war salesman said " look where these shells hit, all in rebel held or contested territory, that proves Assad did it!"

no, obviously we have some deep misunderstanding on the nature of proof of responsibility.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Sep, 2013 11:01 am
@hawkeye10,
You're missing the whole point.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Sep, 2013 01:26 pm
Since I didn't want to translate from French media, I've waited until some English-speaking source referred to it.

Here it is now:
Quote:
Syria crisis: Deep conflicts surface as French debate military strike

A stormy debate in the national assembly tonight laid bare deep conflicts in French political opinion on President François Hollande’s plans to join the US in punitive air strikes on Syria.

The main centre-right opposition party accused Mr Hollande of betraying traditional French policy by “hitching” himself to an American “adventure” without the support of the United Nations.

Christian Jacob, parliamentary leader of the Union pour un Mouvement Populaire (UMP), said that a “surreal Paris-Washington axis” was running “head down” into war “without allies,” without legal backing and without the support of the French people.However, the UMP is itself split on how to deal with the Syrian crisis.

Nicolas Sarkozy, the party’s former leader, is reported to be strongly in favour of action to punish the Syrian regime for its alleged use of chemical weapons in an eastern suburb of Damascus on 21 August.

There was no vote at the end of tonight’s two-hour debate. President Hollande has a constitutional right to commit the French military to actions that last less than four months. The government has hinted, however, that it may put the issue to a parliamentary vote next week if the US Congress supports air-strikes against the Syrian regime when it meets from Monday.

... ... ...
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Sep, 2013 01:50 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
From an Independent's comment
Quote:
[...]In part, one side of Hollande explains the other. At home, he is obliged to be cautious by his consensual instincts and France’s explosive resistance to change. Abroad, he can be decisive and statesmanlike.

The French constitution gives the President substantial, independent powers over foreign and defence issues. And Hollande may have seen an opportunity to graduate, finally, from diffident new boy to European and world leader.

Most of all, however, friends say that the President’s commitment to strikes is rooted in personal conviction. If a large-scale use of chemical weapons goes unpunished, the world, not just the Middle East, will have stumbled into a menacing, new era. That, he believes, cannot be dismissed as “someone else’s problem”.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Sep, 2013 01:54 pm
Quote:
Syrian rebel fighters have attacked a regime-held, predominantly Christian village, commandeering a mountaintop hotel and shelling the ancient community from there, a nun and activists have said.
[...]
The Britain-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights confirmed the attack and said the rebels are from the al-Qaida-linked Jabhat al-Nusra.
Source
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Sep, 2013 02:12 pm
KHOU 11 News
BREAKING: A Senate panel has approved a resolution giving President Obama authority to use military force against #Syria.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Sep, 2013 02:41 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

You're missing the whole point.

right, the point is any excuse to force regime change, even if it is likely to hurt Americas long term best interests.
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Wed 4 Sep, 2013 03:08 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawk--there is a way of thinking that would say that the "red line" speech as good as guarantees that there will be a gas attack.

The Arab and Islamic world would see Assad as weak if he didn't respond to such threats from the US. And if there was no gas attack his enemies, and he will have a goodly number, would have said exactly that.

Which raises two possibilities which I don't suppose I need explain to you.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Sep, 2013 03:11 pm
@hawkeye10,
A 90-day limited war is not going to result in any regime change. You probably have not been keeping up with the news, but the US strategy is not regime change.
 

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