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Do we really have to take military action to Syria?

 
 
revelette
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Sep, 2013 06:23 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
I've not seen anything that would convince me a missile strike would shorten the war or improve the lives of ordinary Syrians
.

I don't think it is meant to as it has been clear we don't want to get involved in the civil war. I think it is meant to send a message that chemical weapons use is not acceptable. Used to be pretty common wisdom.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Sep, 2013 07:02 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Yes, they are, Finn, you just can't face it. Assad doesn't come anywhere near to having slaughtered the numbers the US has.

"The media are a pitiful lot. They don't give us any history, they don't give us any analysis, they don't tell us anything. They don't raise the most basic questions: Who has the most weapons of mass destruction in the world by far? Who has used weapons of mass destruction more than any other nation? Who has killed more people in this world with weapons of mass destruction than any other nation? The answer: the United States."

Howard Zinn

[bold added is mine to help you focus, Finn.]
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Sep, 2013 10:44 am
It was only in 2009 ...

http://i1334.photobucket.com/albums/w641/Walter_Hinteler/a_zps07cfc74c.jpg

“President Barack Obama's administration considers Syria a key player in Washington's efforts to revive the stalled Middle East peace process."
”Syria is an essential player in bringing peace and stability to the region".
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Sep, 2013 10:49 am
@revelette,
It's such a stupid argument on chemical weapons. Dead is dead no matter what type of weapon is used. To claim that chemical weapons is more harmful is an oxymoron. For humans, there's only life or death. Even soldiers who come back from wars suffer from PTS or other physical injuries that will never restore them to their normal life.

It's all politics and nothing more.
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Sep, 2013 10:51 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Obviously he was wrong. He didn't have a chrystal ball and know there was going to be an Arab Spring with Assad responding so forcefully like he did which triggered the civil war. (read about it on another thread through a link...)
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Sep, 2013 10:57 am
@revelette,
The Mideast countries are now making fun of Obama for not taking the action he promised earlier. They can sneer all they want; what are they doing to stop Assad's use of chemical weapons? NOTHING! And it's in their back yard.

Why, me worry? What for.

0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Sep, 2013 10:59 am
@cicerone imposter,
The following was left on the thread "Obama hits the pause button..." It answers why chemical weapons use is thought to be so different than conventional weapons.

9 questions about Syria you were too embarrassed to ask

Quote:
. Come on, what’s the big deal with chemical weapons? Assad kills 100,000 people with bullets and bombs but we’re freaked out over 1,000 who maybe died from poisonous gas? That seems silly.

You’re definitely not the only one who thinks the distinction is arbitrary and artificial. But there’s a good case to be made that this is a rare opportunity, at least in theory, for the United States to make the war a little bit less terrible — and to make future wars less terrible.

The whole idea that there are rules of war is a pretty new one: the practice of war is thousands of years old, but the idea that we can regulate war to make it less terrible has been around for less than a century. The institutions that do this are weak and inconsistent; the rules are frail and not very well observed. But one of the world’s few quasi-successes is the “norm” (a fancy way of saying a rule we all agree to follow) against chemical weapons. This norm is frail enough that Syria could drastically weaken it if we ignore Assad’s use of them, but it’s also strong enough that it’s worth protecting. So it’s sort of a low-hanging fruit: firing a few cruise missiles doesn’t cost us much and can maybe help preserve this really hard-won and valuable norm against chemical weapons.

You didn’t answer my question. That just tells me that we can maybe preserve the norm against chemical weapons, not why we should.

Fair point. Here’s the deal: war is going to happen. It just is. But the reason that the world got together in 1925 for the Geneva Convention to ban chemical weapons is because this stuff is really, really good at killing civilians but not actually very good at the conventional aim of warfare, which is to defeat the other side. You might say that they’re maybe 30 percent a battlefield weapon and 70 percent a tool of terror. In a world without that norm against chemical weapons, a military might fire off some sarin gas because it wants that battlefield advantage, even if it ends up causing unintended and massive suffering among civilians, maybe including its own. And if a military believes its adversary is probably going to use chemical weapons, it has a strong incentive to use them itself. After all, they’re fighting to the death.

So both sides of any conflict, not to mention civilians everywhere, are better off if neither of them uses chemical weapons. But that requires believing that your opponent will never use them, no matter what. And the only way to do that, short of removing them from the planet entirely, is for everyone to just agree in advance to never use them and to really mean it. That becomes much harder if the norm is weakened because someone like Assad got away with it. It becomes a bit easier if everyone believes using chemical weapons will cost you a few inbound U.S. cruise missiles.

That’s why the Obama administration apparently wants to fire cruise missiles at Syria, even though it won’t end the suffering, end the war or even really hurt Assad that much.

cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Sep, 2013 11:03 am
@revelette,
Well, if the Geneva Convention is the key to eliminate chemical warfare from our planet, what are the rest of the developed countries doing to stop it?

I can't hear you!
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Sep, 2013 11:06 am
@cicerone imposter,
I can't hear them either. Somehow this all got mixed up into "another American war" rather than just simply Assad using chemical weapons against civilians.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Tue 3 Sep, 2013 11:09 am
@revelette,
That's exactly why I'm against US involvement against Syria.

It should be an international effort if it's so damn important.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Tue 3 Sep, 2013 12:06 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I'm sorry but hearing Obamaa talk about a proportional response has really put my teeth on edge, especially as all the interviewers on the news have had to repeat the phrase.

That's a bit of American English I never even knew existed until today.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Tue 3 Sep, 2013 12:41 pm
@izzythepush,
That's politics-speak for "I don't know how much and how long."
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Tue 3 Sep, 2013 12:53 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I've never heard proportional, I kept wanting to shout proportionate every time I heard it. At first I thought he'd got it wrong, but no, it's Obama, not Bush. Then I thought, no I'm going to hear our news readers say it all day, and they did..
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Tue 3 Sep, 2013 01:11 pm
@izzythepush,
I guess Americans are used to the word proportional - as well as proportionate.

We're not that touchy about the use of words.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Tue 3 Sep, 2013 01:12 pm
@izzythepush,
It is a common enough expression. I've certainly used it...and I've heard many others use it.

It is not comparable to "strategery"...if that is what you are thinking, Izzy.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Sep, 2013 01:24 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

I guess Americans are used to the word proportional - as well as proportionate.

We're not that touchy about the use of words.

to the point we tend to invent our own personal meanings for words in the attempt to win arguments o abuse the justice system. government is also very artful with words, for instance with Libya were they turned "protect civilians" into "enter a civil war by running thousands of bombing runs", a scam that Obama is trying to repeat in Syria. Governments dont seem to think that honesty and transparency are required of them, or even that they should be aspirations.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Tue 3 Sep, 2013 01:38 pm
@Frank Apisa,
No, I've just never heard it before.
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Sep, 2013 01:45 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
I'm sorry but hearing Obamaa talk about a proportional response has really put my teeth on edge, especially as all the interviewers on the news have had to repeat the phrase.

That's a bit of American English I never even knew existed until today.


It's very kind of you izzy to bring this solecism to our attention. It's a good thing that you have your priorities in good order.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Sep, 2013 02:03 pm
@spendius,
You can be a right sarky bastard when you want to. Are you saying hearing it left you feeling tranquil and content?
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Sep, 2013 02:07 pm
@revelette,
Quote:
can maybe help preserve this really hard-won and valuable norm against chemical weapons.


But a norm is an intellectual concept. A product of thought. Of the cloister. An admirable one for sure. It cannot be a truth because it has not held good in other places and at other times and may well not hold good in future times and places.

But in the real world there are facts. And deeds. Which collide with norms.

The man of action against the man of the study. Nobility against clergy. The one all action in a landscape and the other all contemplation in the wide blue yonder. With fuzzy lines between.

The only trouble is that the Constitution wiped out the nobility and the clergy in favour of the Tiers Etat. The "residue". Urban and rural. A formless mass at the mercy of ambitious wordsmiths fighting it out among themselves with money.
0 Replies
 
 

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