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The use of "the which"

 
 
Reply Sun 14 Jul, 2013 10:06 pm
Is it only an archaic usage? Is its modern day counterpart just which?

Context:

The Gospel of John represents Jesus as an incarnation of the eternal Word (Logos), who spoke no parables, talked extensively about himself, and did not explicitly refer to a Second Coming.[36] Jesus preaches in Jerusalem, launching his ministry with the cleansing of the temple. He performs several miracles as signs, most of them not found in the synoptics. The Gospel of John ends:(21:25) "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."

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Type: Question • Score: 3 • Views: 804 • Replies: 14
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View best answer, chosen by oristarA
panzade
  Selected Answer
 
  2  
Reply Mon 15 Jul, 2013 12:40 am
@oristarA,
which if they were written one by one,

The King James version was written in 1611 ; there is some archaic English to be found.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Jul, 2013 04:27 am
"The which" refers to the many other things which John did. Although it is not a common usage, it is by no means archaic. "Oristar had a full set of the Oxford English Dictionary, a Merriam-Webster, an American Heritage Dictionary, and a Webster's Encyclopedic Dictionary--the which represented formidable resources for understanding the vocabulary." In that case, the which refers to the previously named dictionaries. If the use of the locution has become uncommon, it's only because native speakers of English have, as a body, deteriorated in their skills.
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Jul, 2013 04:31 am
@Setanta,
Can't argue there boss.
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Jul, 2013 08:36 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

"The which" refers to the many other things which John did. Although it is not a common usage, it is by no means archaic. "Oristar had a full set of the Oxford English Dictionary, a Merriam-Webster, an American Heritage Dictionary, and a Webster's Encyclopedic Dictionary--the which represented formidable resources for understanding the vocabulary." In that case, the which refers to the previously named dictionaries. If the use of the locution has become uncommon, it's only because native speakers of English have, as a body, deteriorated in their skills.


Such theory is not sloppy idealism; it is full of evangelical wisdom and shrewdness. Cool
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Jul, 2013 09:42 am
@oristarA,
And many great investment opportunities for the wary yet eager investor!
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Jul, 2013 02:27 pm
@Setanta,
Although it is not a common usage, it is by no means archaic. But let me contradict myself ["the which" I am highly proficient at] in order to make one of my typically inane and specious comments.

Quote:
If the use of the locution has become uncommon, it's only because native speakers of English have, as a body, deteriorated in their skills.


This is laughable, Setanta, though it's somewhat difficult to decide which is more laughable, you or this, just another in a long series of your abysmally ignorant offerings on language.

This from the guy who "learned" how to "properly" use the subjunctive from his "study" of French and transferred that to his use of English.

This from the guy who defended up and down, forwards and backwards, the abysmally ignorant advancing their bunch of pet peeves of English.

I'd say this marks a new low in Setanta dumbness but they have come, over the years, so fast and furious, that that would be too difficult a judgment to make.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Jul, 2013 02:38 pm
@panzade,
Quote:
Can't argue there boss.


You could, Pan, if you weren't snowed under by the "boss's" bullshit.

===============================

http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/the-which


(archaic) a longer form of which, often used as a sentence connector
See which (sense 5)

Example Sentences Including 'the which'

More than 70 blocks have sold in the seventh stage of the which is being developed by Queensland group Transtate Ltd.
MISC (1995)

PROPERTY owners have improved rights under the which received Royal Assent last week.
TIMES, SUNDAY TIMES (2002)

They splashed around in about 3cm of water, emulating the which adorns the foundation.
MISC (1995)

To the which rather than any dishonour shall grow by me, I myself will venter [venture] my royal blood.
Jane Dunn ELIZABETH AND MARY: COUSINS, RIVALS, QUEENS (2003)
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Jul, 2013 02:53 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
If the use of the locution has become uncommon, it's only because native speakers of English have, as a body, deteriorated in their skills.

Can you argue with that?
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Jul, 2013 08:15 pm
@panzade,
Quote:
Can you argue with that?


It's pure drivel, Pan, also,

applesauce [slang], balderdash, baloney (also boloney), beans, bilge, blah (also blah-blah), blarney, blather, blatherskite, blither, bosh, bull [slang], bunk, bunkum (or buncombe), claptrap, codswallop [British], crapola [slang], crock, nonsense, drool, fiddle, fiddle-faddle, fiddlesticks, flannel [British], flapdoodle, folderol (also falderal), folly, foolishness, fudge, garbage, guff, hogwash, hokeypokey, hokum, hoodoo, hooey, horsefeathers [slang], humbug, humbuggery, jazz, malarkey (also malarky), moonshine, muck, nerts [slang], nuts, piffle, poppycock, punk, rot, rubbish, senselessness, silliness, slush, stupidity, taradiddle (or tarradiddle), tommyrot, tosh, trash, trumpery, twaddle

and what's more, it's

absurdity, asininity, fatuity, foolery, idiocy, imbecility, inaneness, inanity, insanity, kookiness, lunacy; absurdness, craziness, madness, senselessness, witlessness; hoity-toity, monkey business, monkeyshine(s), shenanigan(s), tomfoolery; gas, hot air, rigmarole (also rigamarole); double-talk, greek, hocus-pocus

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/drivel

Smile

panzade
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jul, 2013 12:18 pm
@JTT,
OK. I'll grant you you're the scion of synonyms but you haven't addressed my question. Very Happy Very Happy
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jul, 2013 01:11 pm
@panzade,

Quote:
but you haven't addressed my question.


I did, to illustrate for you just how silly "Setanta's" idea was. Quotes around Setanta's because he has advanced a notion that he has stolen from some wag thinking it would make him appear somehow learned.

But answered in the way you first requested, no.

Setanta:
Quote:
If the use of the locution has become uncommon, it's only because native speakers of English have, as a body, deteriorated in their skills.


Quote:

http://www.pbs.org/speak/speech/correct/decline/

The Decline of Grammar

G Nunberg

...

But while it is understandable that speakers of a language with a literary tradition would tend to be pessimistic about its course, there is no more hard evidence for a general linguistic degeneration than there is reason to believe that Aaron and Rose are inferior to Ruth and Gehrig.

It is absurd even to talk about a language changing for the better or the worse
Most of my fellow linguists, in fact, would say that it is absurd even to talk about a language changing for the better or the worse. When you have the historical picture before you, and can see how Indo-European gradually slipped into Germanic, Germanic into Anglo-Saxon, and Anglo-Saxon into the English of Chaucer, then Shakespeare, and then Henry James, the process of linguistic change seems as ineluctable and impersonal as continental drift. From this Olympian point of view, not even the Norman invasion had much of an effect on the structure of the language, and all the tirades of all the grammarians since the Renaissance sound like the prattlings of landscape gardeners who hope by frantic efforts to keep Alaska from bumping into Asia.


Don't think for a moment that I'm suggesting that Setanta is any kind of grammarian.


Quote:

http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/articles/media/1994_01_24_thenewrepublic.html

Grammar Puss

S Pinker

Language is a human instinct. All societies have complex language, and everywhere the languages use the same kinds of grammatical machinery like nouns, verbs, auxiliaries, and agreement. All normal children develop language without conscious effort or formal lessons, and by the age of three they speak in fluent grammatical sentences, outperforming the most sophisticated computers. Brain damage or congenital conditions can make a person a linguistic savant while severely retarded, or unable to speak normally despite high intelligence. All this has led many scientists, beginning with the linguist Noam Chomsky in the late 1950's, to conclude that there are specialized circuits in the human brain, and perhaps specialized genes, that create the gift of articulate speech.

But when you read about language in the popular press, you get a very different picture. Johnny can't construct a grammatical sentence. As educational standards decline and pop culture disseminates the inarticulate ravings and unintelligible patois of surfers, rock stars, and valley girls, we are turning into a nation of functional illiterates: misusing [hopefully], confusing [lie] and [lay], treating [bummer] as a sentence, letting our participles dangle. English itself will steadily decay unless we get back to basics and start to respect our language again.

...

For here are the remarkable facts. Most of the prescriptive rules of the language mavens make no sense on any level. They are bits of folklore that originated for screwball reasons several hundred years ago and have perpetuated themselves ever since. For as long as they have existed, speakers have flouted them, spawning identical plaints about the imminent decline of the language century after century. All the best writers in English have been among the flagrant flouters. The rules conform neither to logic nor tradition, and if they were ever followed they would force writers into fuzzy, clumsy, wordy, ambiguous, incomprehensible prose, in which certain thoughts are not expressible at all. Indeed, most of the "ignorant errors" these rules are supposed to correct display an elegant logic and an acute sensitivity to the grammatical texture of the language, to which the mavens are oblivious.
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jul, 2013 02:28 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
Don't think for a moment that I'm suggesting that Setanta is any kind of grammarian.


I wouldn't dream of it Very Happy
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jul, 2013 02:57 pm
One of the things I love about the English language is the writer may, at his whim, choose to compose poem or pun, to be plain or pedantic. Break a rule if it makes your point. But you do well to remember the rules when necessary.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jul, 2013 05:46 pm
@neologist,
Quote:
Break a rule if it makes your point. But you do well to remember the rules when necessary.


That's what prescriptivists say, Neo, when people who know how language works point out that no one, operating in a natural language fashion, follows their silly rules because they aren't rules.

These idiots rant about a prescriptive rule and often, found within that same rant, they've broken their own prescription.

0 Replies
 
 

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