2
   

Oz Election Thread #5 - Rudd's Labor (redux)

 
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 06:00 am
@vikorr,
I guess it's about what you deem as 'politically correct'. The rampant use of it by shock jocks to disparage opinions from their own makes it meaningless to my ears.

'People with disabilities' might be PC but I damn we'll prefer it to 'spastics', 'cripples' and 'retards'.

My concern is often that generalisation bludgeons nuance and understanding.

And comparing followers of Islam to sharks is a massive generalisation. Set has called me something along the lines of irrational Christian hater flooding A2K with anti Christian diatribes, why I don't know. He has turns occasionally, many have been the temporary focus.

Multiculturalism isn't failing, you're like a farmer who notices a lame cow and kills the herd. There are definitely issues, but they are by no way outweighing the benefits. Problems should be individually addressed, but saying the whole thing has failed is denying the beauty of the Australian experience.
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 06:05 am
@vikorr,
Quote:
It is even written into law that you can't discriminate against a white Australian male (excluding on age & religious grounds), but you can against any male who is : coloured, from a different culture, from a religion. So the law allows discrimination from minority towards the majority - that is PC.


You might want read that again and edit, it doesn't make sense as written. If you're saying that there is a law that says its ok to discriminate against someone who has Caucasian colouring I'd like you to post a link from austlii, or the a-g's legislation web site. That factoid does sound like it came straight from Alan jones' twisted delusional brain.
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 03:34 pm
Ha, funnily enough I have an American Facebook contact who just posted this


I find it ironic that the very same people who would call for the end of 'political correctness,' also detest an unsanitized telling of this nation's actual history.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 03:42 pm
@hingehead,
That is so borrowed!
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 04:19 pm
@hingehead,
Hah, my apologies - the law I was thinking about was 20 odd years ago. A quick search showed me that our legislators have actually fixed the issue, at least in Queensland where I live. I didn't bother looking at the other States.

Edit : it's odd, it was around 1990 that I was taught this particular Act by the State Govt dept that I worked for, as part of Equal Employment Opportunity training (a policy of the govt). I can't find historical reference to it.
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 04:22 pm
@JTT,
You're joshing me, something on facebook taken from somewhere else - hoodathunk Wink
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 04:31 pm
@vikorr,
I can't find any mention of such a piece of legislation ever existing in Queensland - admittedly I'm a garden variety librarian, not a law librarian, but I suspect you've heard it second or third hand and it was 'discrimination against whites' in much the same way the end of slavery in the USA was clearly discriminating against whites' [..ability to own slaves]

But happy to be proved wrong (I couldn't even find an article talking about it) - and from what I know of Queensland's political history I'd be gobsmacked that it had legislation so vehemently in opposition to its historical stance toward its indigenous people.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 04:35 pm
@hingehead,
Oops - see my edit - we must have posted around the same time.

another edit :

Quote:
But happy to be proved wrong (I couldn't even find an article talking about it) - and from what I know of Queensland's political history I'd be gobsmacked that it had legislation so vehemently in opposition to its historical stance toward its indigenous people.
I'm not sure what you mean by this.
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 04:49 pm
@vikorr,
It sounds like you're referring to 'affirmative action' type requirements, where if candidates are of equal qualification preference is given to NESBies, indigenous, women, disabled etc, to address long term discrimination the other way. Only really holds up in the public service, not in business, so not really legislation, it's policy.

There are also 'identified' positions where in some cases you have to prove deep insight and ties into indigenous culture. There is never a mention of skin colour. It's like saying requiring a teaching diploma to be a teacher is discriminatory. And by the by Mrs Hinge (a very blonde caucasian) was adopted into a clan in Arnhem land and did qualify for 'identified' positions.
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 04:53 pm
@vikorr,
Oops in answer to part 2 of your post


vikorr wrote:
hingehead wrote:
But happy to be proved wrong (I couldn't even find an article talking about it) - and from what I know of Queensland's political history I'd be gobsmacked that it had legislation so vehemently in opposition to its historical stance toward its indigenous people.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

When I was researching legislation, discrimination against whites in queensland I got bucket loads of stuff showing the awful history of discrimination BY whites - this isn't the tool I was using, but it is publicly accessible:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/result?q=%22%20Race%20discrimination%20Queensland%20History.%22
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 04:59 pm
Back on topic though

Rudd has backed Julia Gillard's choice of Nova Peris to replace a sitting ALP member at the top end. He will be attending the Yirrkala Bark Petition ceremony in NE Arnhem land today
http://www.naidoc.org.au/celebrating-naidoc-week/2013-national-naidoc-week-theme/
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 05:13 pm
@hingehead,
Yes, there has been a terrible history by whites, most of it over 35 years old though. While history should be acknowledged, problems occur when one overly focuses on it to the exclusion of future planning and development of ones self.

I'll stop diverting the thread now :0
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 05:43 pm
@vikorr,
Trouble is it's not as historical as you'd like to think.

Full story

Attorney General of Queensland, Jarrod Bleijie, just revealed a proposal that could set a dangerous precedent:
-Require all voters to meet ID requirements on polling day, making it very difficult for some, particularly the elderly and indigenous, to vote;
-Allow unlimited political donations; and
-Allow secret donations of up to $1.1million per year through a loophole, with no disclosure to the public

QLD Premier Campbell Newman has yet to sign off on this plan - there's still time to mount a powerful campaign to show him that the Australian public won't stand by and allow attempts to weaken democratic participation.

We've created hard-hitting ads to run this week in Queensland's most read paper, The Courier-Mail. Together, we can demonstrate that any government, anywhere in Australia, attempting to sneak through legislation that would undermine our democracy will face a formidable public campaign.

Let's expose the plan with ads this week in Queensland's most-read paper, The Courier-Mail. Every extra dollar we raise starts a fund for legal challenges, advertising and whatever else it will take to stop this anti-democracy agenda.
GET THESE ADS IN THE PAPER

vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 05:59 pm
@hingehead,
I don't see how the first is bad behaviour of whites towards blacks, or even just towards aboriginals. That said, I doubt very much the plan will ever get implemented - it would close to triple the length of the voting process for no gain.

The second & third parts I don't agree with in any way shape or form, but that is due to corruption concerns, not discrimination concerns.

The LNP govt in Qld has been terrible. The previous Labor one not much better.
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 06:44 pm
@vikorr,
Seriously - you can't see how updating ID requirements disadvantages the indigenous?

Imagine you live in Aurukun and you're illiterate, you were born in homelands and don't have a birth certificate - your nearest motor registry is in Atherton 700km away, a 15 hour drive in the car you can't afford - how do you get a drivers license?

This tactic of disenfranchising these voters has been used massively by the Republicans in the USA and I have deep concerns a future LNP federal government would try it on too. Newman in Qld is Abbott's petri dish.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 07:53 pm
@hingehead,
That's not what I said Hingehead :

I said "I don't see how that is whites treating blacks or aboriginals badly".

And it's not. This would be a policy everyone has to abide by...no just whites, not just blacks, not just ethnic minorities - but everyone. So there is no discrimination. It's not even aimed at aboriginals, but everyone, so where then is the bad treatment of them? And it is certainly not racism in any way, shape, or form.

This would also not 'disadvantage' aboriginals in remote communities - it would simply require a few one off actions for those that have lost their birth certificate etc. That's not disadvantage, that's complaints about a bit more effort being required to obtain something they should already have.

I've also seen it argued that criminal law disadvantages aboriginals over whites (as if criminal law didn't exist because people found particular behaviour unacceptable). And it could also be argued that anything involving reading disadvantages aboriginals over whites (for their overall literacy rate is lower). Does that mean that it shouldn't be against the law to commit what are currently offences? Or that the Govt shouldn't put anything into writing? Of course not.
-----------------
But let's take a closer look in relation to your point about ID (despite me thinking it doesn't have a hope in hell of actually working) :
- firstly, you do note that those in remote communities do have licences?

- and secondly; there is nothing to stop any aboriginal person from obtaining ID. They contact their local police, who have licensing powers in remote communities and ask what is required (presumably for the 18+ cards as well, for those who don't want a license), or if they don't want to talk to police, a phone call to Queensland transport saying 'what is required', or the same to the Registrar of Births, Deaths and Marriages for a lost birth certificate. A letter to their local politician if they find insurmountable issues (which is unlikely).

So in relation to perhaps having to provide ID (perhaps because it may not get implemented) - the Govt isn't there to hold every persons hand. At some point in a persons life, they do need to take responsibility for themselves. This is hardly a major, or even minor obstacle for any person to overcome.
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 08:55 pm
@vikorr,
Wow - you are amazingly blind to life in remote communities. So many have police stations - and when they do the indigenous locals always have a great relationship with them. And their literacy is A+ they're always writing to their local members.

Jayzus, first rule of working in these communities is don't turn up with a clipboard, or everyone disappears.

I guess you should consider yourself lucky you don't have a deeper understanding of what it's like out there.

Suffice to say the public institutions you have faith have a huge history of distrust to overcome. Sadly even our attempts to overcome that distrust have caused clusterfucks elsewhere. Don't get me talking - it depresses me. Even when we get it right, or they bootstrap themselves, there's a fair chance some new govt initiative will **** it up.

You either have no clue, or no empathy.

Using your logic a law that says men can only marry women doesn't discriminate against homosexuals because the same law applies to everyone.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 09:56 pm
@hingehead,
hingehead wrote:
And their literacy is A+ they're always writing to their local members.

The A+ literacy is is not correct :
Quote:
Sadly, 87% of Indigenous children in regional and remote areas struggle to read and write and fall well below the national literacy benchmarks.
http://www.aboriginalliteracyfoundation.org/our-programs.html

Quote:
Wow - you are amazingly blind to life in remote communities. So many have police stations - and when they do the indigenous locals always have a great relationship with them.
Did I not say 'if they don't want to talk to them' - there's a reason I said that.

It seems to me that your passions are fired up, and because of my stance, you are now reading things into my writing that I have not put there.

Quote:
Suffice to say the public institutions you have faith have a huge history of distrust to overcome.
Err, Hingehead, you provided an example of white people treating aboriginals badly....I was providing argument argument that requiring ID of everyone is not ill treatment of blacks or aboriginals. You then said it disadvantages them, while I said it did not.

You are now diverting the argument to, what, historical actions of the public service in general? A history of poor treatment that I've acknowledged? (but said it hasn't been around for about 35 years)


At the end of the day, I believe that every single person on this planet has a responsibility to their own life, their skills, their knowledge, everything about who they are. Does such an attitude lack empathy? Or does it recognise the difficulties while empowering and encouraging people to be the best they can be?

The things is does not recognise as legitimate are : a victim attitude, or a 'I can't be bothered so I must be disadvantaged' attitude.

It recognises that those that go out to better their lot in life deserve help.

More importantly, it is an attitude that says 'we can develop ourself, we can learn, we can excel, we can have high self esteem, we can become better people, and we can better our society, etc'

None of this is encouraged in other people when we apologise their lack of willingness to take responsibility for who they are, and where they are going in their own life.

I've yet to see someone come up with a solution that works. Many people make lots of complaints, without ever offering their own solution...

...The current system is more bandaid fixing, and short term orientied, and therefore never addresses the underlying issues...

------------------------------------

...My idea for a solution is long term and multigenerational.

Going on the principle that you need to take responsibility for your own life :

- offer large scale bordering scholarships to bright and promising students (this of course must be purely voluntary)

- provide them at schools that also provide cultural studies

- as more and more become educated, well paid, and achievement oriented, it will encourage more to take up the offer

- as more become educated, they gain more role models, and beliefs in themselves, and reach out further.

In many ways it's like the industrial revolution - as a whole, greater knowledge leads to sharing, leading to greater knowledge still. It's also recognition that tribal cultures (anywhere) didn't evolve into industrial cultures overnight - they took a path that was driven incrementally by each generation. We can speed that process up, but we can't bypass it altogether. So of necessity, I think we need a multigenerational solution.

Now, I've obviously given this thought, and it stems from my belief about self responsibility - does this sound like a lack of empathy for their plight - or is there another reason I believe what I do?

____________
edit : this blinded passion is what I find abhorrent about PC. It expects that anyone that does not toe the PC line must have ulterior and racist motives...it then gets passionate, misreads, starts accusing, labelling, and name calling, and truly does stifle debate (this is a generalisation rather than a direct go at you Hingehead). Debate is needed if solutions are to be aired.

I don't see the example you provided as bad treatment, or racists, or disadvantaging. You jump to conclusions about me and my empathy...and yet, I have given my best thoughts to the issue, and come up with what I believe to be perhaps on the most workable solution (which stems from my beliefs about self responsibility)

Can you say the same, regarding a solution?

Again, I put this down to PC beliefs. Respect is a much better way.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 10:57 pm
@vikorr,
Oops, I missed the sarcasm in the A+
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 11:02 pm
@vikorr,
Ha! You're funny. My first paragraph was irony - but thanks for stating the blindingly obvious.

I'm not het up - you're reading that into what I'm saying because you dislike being wrong, or at least acknowledging your blindspot. Do you think you could take responsibility for your life if you'd been fucked up the arse since you were 4? That all the adults you grew up knowing suffered a generational disconnect with a happy purposeful life? That none of them ever had a job, and had no prospects of getting one? That hated their lives so much the only coping mechanisms were substance abuse and suicide? If an alien race came to your town and said 'Right you won't be sleeping in houses any more and there'll be none of this working for a wage business, forget schools, we'll take your kids and teach them how things work now?'

I agree the solutions (or at least reparations) are multigenerational but if you can't see/acknowledge how much damage has already been done and how far behind the starting line these communities are, and you think putting solutions in place that would work for economically disadvantaged urban white kids is going to work in remote indigenous communities you are sadly blindfolded.

I love that you think there has been no discrimination in the last 35 years. Wishing it were so doesn't make it true.

Bright and promising students from these communities do get scholarships, but many fail because their prepatory schooling is so poor - what we accept as service delivery in these communities would condemned in national news papers if it happened in a city. It's passive racism - and I know there are some public employees doing their damnedest to try and improve things on the ground, but the resourcing doesn't take into account how far behind the starting line these communities are.

That said there are also non-indigenous people with dark hearts working in these areas Misogynists, Misfits and Missionaries as the saying goes, and the odd BING (been in New Guinea) - govt funds are channelled out and misused. Even in the big centres (like Cairns) have a look at how many students from the partially govt funded/partially church funded, now Noel Pearson owned indigenous private school have graduated with QTAC scores. not one by the end 2012 and a former principal is facing serious fraud charges.

The fact that you think you have the solution shows me how little you know what you're talking about in this area. That's not meant to be disrespect - I was you until I met people who work in these areas and are passionate about solutions. They grasp onto any small victory they can. But governments change, LNP wiped out ATSIC, and stuck in a new model (the ICC) that has now died on the vine - now there are poorly coordinated programs by individual depts, that change with each govt - how do you deliver intergenerational solutions in that environment? Decisions are made from Canberra by people who have 'noble savage' attitudes, or like you, think our indigenous are just dark white people, blank canvases waiting to be painted.

You say the current system is band-aids. You might be right, but do you even know what the current system is? For example what do you know about CDEP or IEP, or RJCP? - and that's just in employment, what about business, housing, child protection blah blah blah.

The simple fact is most Australians don't really care - it's a relatively small proportion of people way out of sight.

I understand your belief in self-responsibility - I have it too - but ask yourself how you got yours.
 

Related Topics

Beached As Bro - Discussion by dadpad
Oz election thread #3 - Rudd's Labour - Discussion by msolga
Australian music - Discussion by Wilso
Oz Election Thread #6 - Abbott's LNP - Discussion by hingehead
AUstralian Philosophers - Discussion by dadpad
Australia voting system - Discussion by fbaezer
 
Copyright © 2021 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 04/11/2021 at 03:03:36